batsbrew
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final mix BOUNCEDOWN
i'm thinking about this too hard!!  i like to have a stereo file, of my final mix, including all my sub busses and automation, individual track effects, etc, just as if i had bounced the output of a mix desk to a 2" tape machine. old school. that file, is what i will export, to master in another program. so, i'm bouncing my entire mix down to a stereo pair, then i route that to MAINS bypassing the master bus, so i hear the raw stereo mix directly to mains, to ensure that i have what i want. for my final stereo mix, i've always used 'what you hear' in the bounce to tracks dialog.... seems like the right choice. but wouldn't a more correct method, be to bounce down to tracks what is going thru the Mains output only? so the idea is, all tracks routed to sub busses, all subs routed to master (i mix into compression on the master bus) and the master routed to main outs. or is this the same thing as 'What you Hear'?
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fireberd
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/11/30 19:42:18
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What I've always done, right or wrong, is bounce all the tracks (whether panned to "0" or to the left or right) to a new "Stereo" track. I then take that track and "master" it with Izotope Ozone. I export the Ozone track as 16bit/14.4Khz stereo wav file.
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/11/30 21:28:14
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what i am asking,
is what picks up the correct routing so that the bounce strictly comes from the output of the master,
or in other words,
the Mains?
what i don't want to happen, is anything else being included in the mixdown,
OTHER than what i am monitoring thru the master bus,
what is going to mains.
i've had some anomalies, where i am hearing in my final bounce,
what sounds like an extra boost in level on a particular sub buss, say, percussion,
that does not sound like what i'm hearing when i'm monitoring the mix before the bounce.
nothing is routed wrong,
it's all correct,
but once i do the 'bounce', i'm not hearing the playback exactly the same as i did listening to the mix pre-bounce,
and makes me think more is getting bounced than JUST the output from the master buss
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/11/30 21:30:30
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so,
i don't want to bounce the master PLUS all the sub busses,
i only want to bounce the final stereo out,
after all effects have been run thru, all sub busses have been routed to master,
and the master out is the only signal going to the 'bounce'.
sometimes it seems as if picking 'what you hear' is routing not only the master buss, but all the other busses at the same time as the master buss...
which would defeat the purpose.
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/01 14:59:52
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so.........
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..............
does anyone know what bouncing from mains only does?
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bokchoyboy
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/01 15:26:28
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Well, I do what Fireberd does, so I am not really helping you out with the answer... I think people are so preoccupied with the Cakewalk "situation" right now that they aren't focusing on questions like this, but it will pass, and some smart folks will pop in ASAP and give you good feedback.... On a different note, I noticed in your signature that you are using a Babyface Pro(liked your Soundcloud tunes too)... I'm due for a new interface, and this looks like the best way to go... any thoughts on signal flow, routing quirks, Totalmix, etc. that you can impart? Don't want to highjack this thread, so don't worry about answering if you got other things on your plate. Salud! Freq P.S. If you don't get an answer in a timely manner, maybe a visit to the new BeyondCakewalk http://beyondcakewalk.com/forum/index.php) and CakewalkCommunity ( http://sonarmods.com./sonarmods/forum2017/) websites might expedite things..
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Cactus Music
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/01 15:48:05
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I always do the following;
Mute the master to check everything is routed there,,,it often isn't even effect busses can be missed. . unmute once you have silence.
Select NONE
Export the mix using the default settings what ever that is, I never look anymore , they seem to be the same over time.
I change one thing, the bit rate down to 16.
I guess I've never thought to "bounce " internally as export is pretty fast.
I master in Wave Lab so I guess if your mastering in Sonar you would just drag and drop the export to a new stereo track. Personally I don't like this idea as then the master buss will need changing as the effects in the bin will have already been used during the export and new plug ins will be required.
I see no benefit in having a stereo track of the same thing you can hear anyhow.
I I was using Sonar for mastering it would be a special template and only the stereo tracks or the tracks from a whole albumwould be included. seems messy to do it otherwise but this is where we each have our own ways and nothing wrong with that at all.
I could not think of NOT mastering in Wave Lab after 15 years or more. I love the browser where he whole album is easily opened and tabbed. ALl the plug ins stay in the rack and you can treat each song the same. gives it glue.
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timidi
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/01 16:11:08
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Never thought of muting the master to check for missed routings. That's a great idea.
I do sort of what johnny does. In that, I do bounce to track just using the default. Seems to work.
Then, if taking the resulting wav out of Sonar, I just drag it out to wherever. Usually the desktop and then organize from there.
That said, I don't think I understand your question Batsbrew.
If your busses are routed to the master they shouldn't be occurring on the main out except through the master.
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/01 17:23:39
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bokchoyboy
Well, I do what Fireberd does, so I am not really helping you out with the answer... I think people are so preoccupied with the Cakewalk "situation" right now that they aren't focusing on questions like this, but it will pass, and some smart folks will pop in ASAP and give you good feedback.... On a different note, I noticed in your signature that you are using a Babyface Pro(liked your Soundcloud tunes too)... I'm due for a new interface, and this looks like the best way to go... any thoughts on signal flow, routing quirks, Totalmix, etc. that you can impart? Don't want to highjack this thread, so don't worry about answering if you got other things on your plate.
Salud!
Freq
P.S. If you don't get an answer in a timely manner, maybe a visit to the new BeyondCakewalk http://beyondcakewalk.com/forum/index.php) and CakewalkCommunity (http://sonarmods.com./sonarmods/forum2017/) websites might expedite things..
HI FREQ! the babyface.... i can tell you this..... the day i bought it, i didn't bother installing the drivers, i'm not connected to the web: my daw dates back to 2010...... win xp, never updated beyond service pack 2 the babyface worked perfectly....first time it powered up. and i've tracked several new demos using it, the preamps are extremely clean, almost no color, and the totalmix control panel rocks. highly suggested. i got mine for $600 with a guitar center coupon that did NOT exclude RME!
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/01 17:26:24
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Cactus Music
I always do the following;
Mute the master to check everything is routed there,,,it often isn't even effect busses can be missed. . unmute once you have silence.
Select NONE
Export the mix using the default settings what ever that is, I never look anymore , they seem to be the same over time.
I change one thing, the bit rate down to 16.
I guess I've never thought to "bounce " internally as export is pretty fast.
I master in Wave Lab so I guess if your mastering in Sonar you would just drag and drop the export to a new stereo track. Personally I don't like this idea as then the master buss will need changing as the effects in the bin will have already been used during the export and new plug ins will be required.
I see no benefit in having a stereo track of the same thing you can hear anyhow.
I I was using Sonar for mastering it would be a special template and only the stereo tracks or the tracks from a whole albumwould be included. seems messy to do it otherwise but this is where we each have our own ways and nothing wrong with that at all.
I could not think of NOT mastering in Wave Lab after 15 years or more. I love the browser where he whole album is easily opened and tabbed. ALl the plug ins stay in the rack and you can treat each song the same. gives it glue.
ok cactus, thanks for the input... i'll experiment with that approach this weekend. i always check the master that way, always have.... by the time i've finished a mix, i'm confident of all the routings. and i use a lot of busses, usually at least 8, mostly around 12. i keep all 'pre-mastered' tracks at 24 bit. i also output to wavelab, and master there, adding dither and bit drop in the L2 plug.
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/01 17:37:59
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timidi
Never thought of muting the master to check for missed routings. That's a great idea.
I do sort of what johnny does. In that, I do bounce to track just using the default. Seems to work.
Then, if taking the resulting wav out of Sonar, I just drag it out to wherever. Usually the desktop and then organize from there.
That said, I don't think I understand your question Batsbrew.
If your busses are routed to the master they shouldn't be occurring on the main out except through the master.
well, that's what i always thought too... if busses are routed to master. but in the dialog box, for selecting the sources and outputs: In the Source Category field: Main Outputs. Choosing this option creates new separate tracks for each main output you highlight in the Source Buses/Tracks field. Each main output you highlight will produce a new mono track, stereo track, or two to eight new mono tracks (the Split Mono option), depending on whether the output is a stereo output or the Surround Main, and depending on what you choose in the Channel Format field. vs Entire Mix. Choosing this option bounces your entire mix down to a new mono track, stereo track, or two to eight new mono tracks (the Split Mono option), depending on whether the output is a stereo output or the Surround Main, and depending on what you choose in the Channel Format field. so i've always chosen 'entire mix' but, wouldn't the purist way to do it, be to simply output from the mains? assuming that all the automation and fx, etc, are always active routing thru the mains?
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/01 17:40:38
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one reason i like to bounce the entire mix down to stereo file in the same project,
is so that i can solo the new final mix track, routed directly to mains,
against the original mix with the new bounced track muted,
and verify that the actually sound the same.
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/06 15:12:09
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well.
after 6 attempts at exporting final mixes using 'mains' as the source,
i definitely am not getting what i should be getting.
and do not know why.
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jamesg1213
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/06 16:51:38
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Still not quite sure what you're asking Rob, but; are all your tracks either routed to a bus or to the master bus, are all the busses routed to the master bus, and is the master bus routed to the mains?
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/06 16:56:25
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of course,
all tracks are routed to busses,
and all busses are routed to master,
and master is routed to mains.
i want the mains output.
something is wrong internally with the routing.
again, i'm on sonar 6 PE
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57Gregy
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/06 20:38:46
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Do you perhaps have another, hidden Main, such as for a headphone mix?
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/06 20:39:24
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nope.
it's all clean as a whistle.
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Cactus Music
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/06 20:54:44
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Gregs point is a good one. I was going nuts once wondering why my exported wave showed overs in Wave Lab even though I had the Brickwall limiter set at -.4 All my exports always reflect this setting. If they don't , then something is not going through the master. What is was was exactly what Greg said and I had to use the Track View thing and saw there was an extra buss unchecked so you don't see it. So there's another place to look.
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/06 22:49:17
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doesn't select all take care of that automatically?
does it really NOT select all?
i don't have any busses not being used, how could a missing buss occur?
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Cactus Music
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 00:25:17
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Well not sure about Sonar 6 anymore, But example is my hidden buss seemed to be created by using a track template. Inserting a track from a certain template I use for Bass also seemed to insert a new master buss which for some weird reason was hidden. What I noticed was the word Master said master in the bass tracks output? Why no capital?? Then a light buldb went on and I opened the Track Manager and found a second buss which if they are not ticked the don't show. This sometimes happens in the tracks as well and you'll see a missing number , like there's no track 6. So I have often remembered to open the Track Manager to find a missing track. SO not sure if Sonar 6 has a Track Manager, been a while.
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soens
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 05:00:37
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"The Final Bouncedown!" ??
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 10:09:10
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Version 6 is/was no different from any subsequent versions with regard to exporting.
If you are hearing something different between your mix and your export (it helps to define different!) then it's either a routing problem, a selection problem or an export settings problem.
At a push you might be hearing very small differences with unfrozen vsti's or any other Fx which might be introducing spectral randomisation.
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57Gregy
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 15:01:06
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So you bounce-to-track the entire project to a separate track and output that to the Main to bypass your effects which are in the Master so you can check that the mix sounds the same, but it doesn't. If it did, that would be your export.
Hmm. Can you insert another Main output and try that one?
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 15:08:35
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no,
it's more simple than you guys are making it out to be...
this problem.....
i can bounce to tracks by selecting "all", in the dialog box, selecting 'what you hear', and the routings are all automatic.
but what if i select "Mains" as the source?
just as if i was outputting from a mixer, to a two track tape....
i would go out of the 'MAIN OUTPUTS' on the mixer, to the tape.
so why can't i select 'mains' as the source of what i want to bounce,
and get the same mix as i get when i select 'what i hear'?
if everything i have, is sent to the master bus, and that is output to the MAIN (soundcard or interface) then that should be the final mix routed properly, correct?
everything
is routed to master buss.
Master buss,
is routed to mains.
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timidi
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 15:47:42
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If mixing to mains, wouldn't you then be mixing thru your RME total mix thingy in like a loop?
Maybe there is some software phasey things going on. Do you have any sends or effects active in the RME rack?
just guessing.
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 17:39:07
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no, i'm just trying to get a bounce of what is going thru the master buss,
as is heard on the Mains output.
i'm assuming that i can route directly from the sonar console 'mains' directly to a new stereo track during a bounce?
if not, why provide it as a choice of 'source'?
what started this, was i 'exported' the mix using both the 'what you hear' and 'mains' as the source,
and they sound different.
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timidi
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 18:39:00
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batsbrew
what started this, was i 'exported' the mix using both the 'what you hear' and 'mains' as the source,
and they sound different.
do they cancel with flipped phase?
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Katnip
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 19:03:02
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batsbrew
what i am asking,
is what picks up the correct routing so that the bounce strictly comes from the output of the master,
or in other words,
the Mains?
what i don't want to happen, is anything else being included in the mixdown,
OTHER than what i am monitoring thru the master bus,
what is going to mains.
i've had some anomalies, where i am hearing in my final bounce,
what sounds like an extra boost in level on a particular sub buss, say, percussion,
that does not sound like what i'm hearing when i'm monitoring the mix before the bounce.
nothing is routed wrong,
it's all correct,
but once i do the 'bounce', i'm not hearing the playback exactly the same as i did listening to the mix pre-bounce,
and makes me think more is getting bounced than JUST the output from the master buss
I don't know if this will help since you've stated that nothing is routed wrong, but I've had the same experience of drums (toms) being too loud, only to find that somehow the toms buss rather than the master buss was assigned as the default buss. I have no idea how that happens since I haven't switched anything knowingly. As far as bouncing tracks down to a stereo track, I used to manually select only the tracks that I wanted bounced but found that simply selecting all tracks gets the same result. Midi and muted tracks will not be part of the final mix. I'm no power user, so there may be better ways to do it.
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batsbrew
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 19:03:20
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have not looked at that yet....
i'll try to bring the exported file in against the bounced inside track, and check it.
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Cactus Music
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Re: final mix BOUNCEDOWN
2017/12/07 19:20:31
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  I thought I'd show you my settings. Sorry I'm on a laptop at work so it's on board WASAPI mode and not exactly how it looks when you have an audio interface. For export I always use " SELECT NONE" as someone here a long time ago recommended that as being bullet proof over select all, Don't no why, don't care, always works. I also pretty much use the shown defaults for both track bounce and exports. Both use the "entire mix" as default and that also seems to always work. I just did the bounce and I cannot hear any difference. I think this might be something in your RME mixer set up.
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