"following Light"

https://app.box.com/s/6j3vxpc13fdsprafbl6j

specifically, how does this translate to headphones?
i'm working on a theory........

Bat,
Great playing and parts.  The mix is not as clear or clean as your normal work.  
On speakers, I don't hear quite so much simbalence or very top end as in my cans (ATH-M50's).
There are also seems to be more apparent stereo width on speaker than headphone which is weird because it should be opposite that.
Have you applied some special stereo widening to the mix or certain instruments?  
 
Rimshot

Bat, It all sounds pretty good on my Sennheiser HD 280 Pro Headset @64 ohms. The acoustic guitar at the start came in a bit loud and at the end, not being in balance with the rest of the song, but once everything else kicked in it seemed pretty balanced and had a really good stereo field for all of the instrumentation and for the vocals. There seemed to be good separation of everything and not congested in the middle. You do realize there are good headphones and crappy headphones and then their are great headphones like mine that are Hi Def with great tone spreads that give the music definition and clarity the way it should be heard. I have listened through just about every brand of headsets out there, at every dollar price you can come up with, but have never heard a better set than what I own right know. Not sure what your theory is, but I'm sure it will end up being interesting. Anyway, thanks for another really great live sound/ song, it was awesome.
 
Peace and Blessings, John
 
Be nice to hear comments from you!!

As per instructions I wound down the volume on my monitors.
 
Well it sounds pretty much how I would expect a Bat tune to sound on my Beyer dynamic DT100's, which is OK but then they are DT100's.
 
Then, because it is a Bat tune, I listened again on my Event 20/20's.
 
I know which I prefer.
 
 
 

I really like this Bat. Sounded very well balanced to me. Nice feel. At times it almost sounded like I was hearing some Jane's Addiction influence in there. Might have just been me. :) I liked the drum sound a lot. What are you using? Overall great tune that I've come to expect from you. Nice job.

MakeShift
Bat,
 
You continually give me something to aspire too.  My ears are just not good enough to find anything wrong with this mix.  Excellent musicianship, as always.  Man, I wish I could play like you.  I am assuming, as per usual, that all of your guitar tones are the real deal.  They sound great.  The vocals had a little bit of a Tommy Shaw feel for me.  Good song.  At your level of craftsmanship, I should probably try harder to find something to critique you on.....but I can't.  I think it all sounds great.
 
I like the title too. 

makeshift
thanks mike, for listening and making the nice comments.
all of these electric guitar tracks are miced up cabinets,
most are continuous tracks from beginning to end, just a few punch-ins here and there.
i have found that i can seemlessly punch in with the best of them...
but it's easier for me to maintain the 'vibe' if i try to nail it from beginning to end.
 
i loved tommy shaw with his first couple of styx albums, i thought crystal ball was just brilliant.
he's a total pro now, but then, he was just starting, and i really liked that go for it attitude in his voice.
 
this song, was originally called "The Travel Song"
it was inspired by a friends' trip to england to cross-country bicycle....
and upon arriving at the destination to begin the trip, finding out their bicycles had been trashed by the courier....
and a kind local took them under his wing, to a local bike shop, and got them all fixed up.
i took it another step, and gave it a religious undertone, and kind of married the two ideas into one.
thanks again, glad you dig it.
 

mike_mccue
I'm going to go out on a limb; I think it sounded just like the CD version.

 
i think you are right.
 
 

So what is the theory?
 
Is it; "Speakers cabinets with wide dispersion, long throw tweeters are easier to mix for headphones than speaker cabinets with narrow dispersion and fast fall off high frequency response."?
 
Or maybe
 
"Headphones that make everything sound different than what it sounds like on 100s of different speaker cabinets make everything sound different".?
 
 
 
 
BTW, having listened to the song on headphones intently in response to this post, I grew to more fully appreciate the creative use of panning effects on some of flourishes and fills. It's a really polished mix.

Bat,

I caught onto Styx a few years late, but once I did, I dug their early stuff as well. To be specific on this song, my head almost immediately went to "Man In The Wilderness." Again, nice work. I am also trying to do more of the play all the way though with just a few punch ins. It really helps me to fall more into the groove.

mike:
 
my theory:
the way you process and mix the low end, and the most high end, makes or breaks a headphone mix.
the common frequency for everyone, is the mids, of course, that's where most people hear the most information...
but to get the heaphone mixes to be as good as the speaker mixes, is tricky, and requres a more modern (for me) approach.

i'm looking for some commonalities with headphone listening, that i can focus on mix wise....for my mixes to work better in the headphones, and not screw up the good translation thru the monitors and homes stereos.
i'm thinking more folks listen on headphones or earbuds these days, than did when i was younger and just getting into music....
it's the devices, that drive that decision....

i like the listener to really have to dig into my entire mix, on vocal songs, i mix it for the vox to blend and work as an instrument, NOT to stand out on top like a standard top 40 mix, where the vocal is really the only thing going on....and the music is just a backing track......
comes from listening to a lot of classic rock mixes, the AOR stuff, not the hits......!
anyway, that's just my approach to production, it's what i like.
it is very hard to get a good mix to translate mixing with only headphones, i've rarely ever heard a good mix from someone using only headphones to mix....
but i DO use headphones to do spot checks, and to do critical editing..... and i love listening to music with my earbuds in general, because it's the only way i can crank it up to a volume i like, that doesn't bug everybody else around me, and it's the only way i can hear EVERYTHING in a mix, when i'm not in the studio.

and i find usually, that a good mix thru the monitors, will almost always translate into a good sounding headphone mix.
but here's the rub, if you want POWER in the low end, like you say, then there is an entirely different area of EQ and compression that you have to concentrate your work on....
and to NOT ruin the speaker mix, by adding that power, that is the trick.
and believe me, there are HUGE DIFFERENCES in quality of headphones and earbuds.
and usually, it's in the ability to have that power, and smooth high end as well.
headphones and especially ear buds, are tricky beasts..... and it's even harder to get a common concencus amongst different earphone users as it is folks listening thru monitors at 85 dB.
------------------------------
 
thanks for commenting on the mix.....
 
it IS a wide mix, some LCR going on for sure.... but it's so dense, i thought it really needed it.
you need to get some seriously good sounding headphones, or earbuds, part of my theory is that entire droves of people are moving to earbuds/phones as their primary listening method, and some monitor mixing techniques don't translate as well for headphone mixes..
i'm looking for some commonalities with headphone listening, that i can focus on mix wise....for my mixes to work better in the headphones, and not screw up the good translation thru the monitors and homes stereos.
 
 

rimshot
thanks for the kind words....
you know, your ears do not decieve..
i used room mics, and just a tiny bit of room reverb (via sends to a separate bus) to push the guitars back a bit.
when i first mixed it, it was bone dry, and just didn't work for me.
i went from direct, back to mics,and pullled them back a bit, then added some room mic and even added verb, in very small increments, until the guitars set back.
 
 
makeshift
you know, i guess i went and saw KISS as a headliner back in the mid 70's, whenever it was that styx was first breaking, before shaw, and they opened for kiss, and so i saw them when they were really rocking, before they leaned into the more top 40 stuff..
they were really tight, and had a great live sound.
and yes, NOT punching in is harder....
but after you've done 10 full takes, it really makes you focus to nail a part.
heheh

HD 380 Pro
Everything goes through very well - but I really want to hear the lead singing better - up with the volume there;-)
Otherwise a very nice song.

I listened using AKG K240DF cans, and the experience was uplifting.  It also sounded good through my KRK Rokit 8's.  All in all, it sounds well balanced to me.  Regardless of your goal, I think you're getting better and better every time, in all phases.

lynn
thanks for that, lynn...
both systems, that's good to get a feel for what translates out of the bigger krk's vs the headphones....
actually, the more i mix, the more i learn and experiment, but it's still no where near where i want to be yet.


makeshift
yes, i think we are similar that way, about how we hear things....that method of mixing is just a feel thing....

and i much prefer to be drawn into a mix, than have it slap me in the face...

a song like this one (following light) has SO much going on in it....
yet, it all is supposed to flow together, so you are not so aware of all the elements at once...
 

plus, i intentionally play a bit loose, so that the parts are more obvious..
rather than nail parts to the Nth degree, which i can do, but don't like the feel of it.
i'm like somewhere between the stones and Rush..... LOL.... as far as my feel for things,
and i guess my mix style follows that to some degree.
 

REBEL
thanks for listening, i appreciate it.
 
hd380's, nice cans. er, headphones.
LOL
 
not trying to sexist here....
 
even tho i wrap my lyric/vox back a bit compared to pop mixes, i still try to get the eq such that everything is clear.
 
sometimes i think it is just the level of quality of playback systems that makes or breaks certain mixes.
i do a bit of hard LCR mixing, and that seems to not only help with clarity, but also with any phase issues.
seems the more i play with inbetween panning positions, the more it falls apart when summed to mono.
 
i used to like to play with stereo widening and phase tricks, copied and moved tracks, etc, but after several years of trying all those tricks, i've decided it mostly phooks with phase, and is not worth it.