A true audio engineer can make memorable recording with a $10 Radio Shack mic.

I don't believe that is true. You may not need a $2000 mic to make a great recording, but you need a lot better than a $10 Radio Shack piece of junk to get a good sound. 

Great thread. The foundation for me is the performance first and foremost, enhanced by an appropriate arrangement that supports the vision I have for the song. And even though I don't have a well populated mic locker and am certainly not an expert in these matters (mic selection etc.), if I nail the performance then the rest just seems to fall into place all on its own.

Great read you guys.

  M_Glenn_M


Thanks guys.
I now tried cloning the guitar and nudging one for more stereo separation.
Then changed the EQ and comp. for each track with the Pro Channel (one "Thick acoustic" and one "high and light acoustic") presets. I took the vx64 off them both.
The guitar(s)sound better now.
Vox is still the vx 64 with everything I can think of and PC with "Vocals warm and smooth" preset and it's still a bit of a disappointment but I'll work on it. 
It really could be just me as Bub says.

Yes silence is an important element just like white space in painting which brings out the best in the rest. I admit I'm a bit afraid of it.

My rough so far: (warts and all) looking fwd to cleaning up the tracks but didn't want to bother if I couldn't get the quality in the end)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24683934/gone%20but%20not%20forgotten.mp3

As has been pointed out previously, you're probably not as far away from a decent recording as you think.  IMHO, for guitar "maybe" a bit more compression but a good short room verb would go well to maintain yet fill the space.  For Vocals, in the rough mix they are too low but also you appear to need to roll off the low end EQ-wise.  There's some low end stuff that doesn't need to be there, you're voice isn't baritone.  I'd start by using a hpf set to about 100hz and bring the level up in the mix.  Also, the room ambience around the voice doesn't seem to fit so I assume you're using a reverb plug.  I wouldn't think an sm58 would pick up that much room line in.  Someone mentioned using a reverb on a buss and mix the sends back to the guitar and vox.  That's a good idea.  Also subtle compression on the master would help glue it up if you're not already doing that.
Good song, nice playing. 
For reference I'll include my last song done in my home studio, not so much for a shameless self-plug (tho' you know it is) but to show you it's not impossible to get pretty good results out of your bedroom. 
 
http://soundcloud.com/mmarton/i-cast-my-eyes-down

Of course there is another whole approach.....

Buy a Neumann U47 and a Neve 1073 preamp and run it into a Tubetech CL1B compressor using Prism converters.

This way you have eliminated all front end excuses and if you don't sound good using this chain, you will know immediately the the problem is you, or the artist.

i think its a must to invest in good gear, makes all the difference, i'd be quite happy to splash £3,000 on a decent mic, then again rhode nt 5's are only about £140 and i think they are great mics that work well on a few things http://www.studiospares.c.../417180/?source=215_74

Great thread.
+1 on the song first and foremost
+1 on the performance - I personally prefer feel over perfection - some of the greatest artists DO NOT have a great voice but they have conviction, feel, passion (Dylan, Jagger, Robert Smith (the cure), Johnny Cash, Thom Yorke (Radiohead)...etc etc)
+1 on the song arrangement - keep it simple
+1 on a decent mic but you don't need to spend a fortune. Check on reviews of some of the mid-priced stuff and don't be swayed by the 'label snobs'. One of the best all round mics that I own is a Behringer that set me back $50.

chuckebaby

Middleman


An amateur working with subpar gear has a large uphill battle to getting professional results. It can be done but it will take years of trial and error.

have you thought about a career in fortune cookie writings?

Actually, many years ago. I was going to start an American based fortune cookie business called California Fortune Cookies with surfer oriented wisdom. There are no American based manufacturers of the recipe. All Chinese based. Hard to pull the concept together.

Is he a surfer?

jamescollins


To the OP - you've received a lot of good advice here, but I just want to caution you against getting too hung up on expensive gear initially - that can come later. Follow the steps I laid out in my post on the previous page, and experiment from there with mic position and configuration. I'd hate to see you heed some of the advice here and go out and spend 20k on gear, thinking this will be your answer - I absolutely promise you this is not the answer! Mic position and mic configuration are what you should be worried about right now. Until you get basic techniques down, you won't notice any appreciable difference if you use a 1073 or your current preamps. Don't be tempted! 

+1000 James and another +1000 on your long informative post with the instructions you've given. Class stuff brother from a class guy. :)

An amateur working with subpar gear has a large uphill battle to getting professional results. It can be done but it will take years of trial and error.

 
Middleman is so spot on here. That little sentence needs a bit more elaboration because it's one of the most true statements that could be made regarding this. Way to go Middleman! :)
 
We can sit around experimenting with gear that isn't really going to make a difference for years and still fail. The other side of the coin is...we don't want to spend billions either...especially in this economy. There are 2 important lessons we can learn here in my opinion.
 
1. Sub par gear: Though we sometimes will not get the results we are looking for, due to exhaustion of trying to make this stuff work, you often times teach yourself lessons that you might not learn without going down this road. Seriously...it's true. When you have something that may not be the right thing, it forces you to use it to the best of your ability. One day you wake up and accept that you have to make a change when you feel you've hit that exhaustion point. The good thing is you learned so much while going down this road, it is experience that will be priceless to you later...trust me.
 
2. The right gear for the job: I've worked with sub-par gear for many years and have had good gear for the same amount of time. I learned how to really utilize the good stuff from my exhaustion from the not so good stuff. That said, the better gear instantly gives you an advantage because you usually don't have to compensate the way you did using the not so good stuff. Sure, you'll still need to experiment and do a few things as there is nothing magic about anything but you and your performance....but the better gear will definitely remove some of the roadblocks you would encounter using the other stuff.
 
The problem with this field is, it can't just be any good gear. It has to be gear for a particular application. I had a guy tell me one time "Danny, I just bought a U-87 Gold....but man, I have to be honest, it sounds horrible when I mic up my Mesa!" Poor guy...he failed there because that ain't the kind of mic you really want to put on a distorted guitar cab...even if it did cost an arm and a leg. LOL! This is where you can get away with a few 57's and a 421 or even a Royer. Those mic's are just made to handle stuff like that.
 
Now, the other side of the coin is what James was talking about. You sincerely don't need mountains of great gear to get results. Each piece as well as your front end, cables, the way things are patched, instrument performance etc, all walks hand and hand and will increase your quality a few %. You need several things to make that percentage go up. For example, let's take the motor in a car as an example.
 
On my Corvette, I did a few what they call "bolt on mods". New exhaust, computer mod, new air intake. Total price to me, $2400 just to get about 50 more hp. That's 3 things that aren't super important or extreme high end, but they made a difference for a price that I think is a little high for that little horsepower. Yet they were super easy mods to do that didn't break my bank. I could have replaced my cam, lifters, heads, clutch, gears, and rear etc for maybe 8k which would have given me 150+ hp...would it have been worth it? It depends how high performance you want to go as well as how much you can spend, ya know? But I started out with a great car that was mean off the showroom floor. For me to mod another car of a lower value to this one, it would cost me close to what I originally paid for my Vette....and it still may fall short.
 
Keep this in mind though. If I can't drive the car, I'm not going to do good at the track no matter how much I spend, know what I mean? This is where it is extremely important to learn what you have already. Then when you get the idea, you can invest in things that will make more of a difference. If I add 400 hp to my car and don't know how to shift at high speed, or don't know how to feather to reduce wheelspin, a Honda CRX is gonna smoke me in the 1/4 mile no matter how much hp I have. :) LOL! "Nice car dude, plenty of power...and hey, you won tire smoker of the year....but you may wanna learn how to drive that thing before you come back!" Hahahahahaha
 
So applying that to recording, a good mic is going to give you about 30% difference, all the right cables will improve your sound by about 2-3 percent, your recording techniques will give you 5%, a mic pre may help you 3%, a really good instrument will give you 10%, the right room and knowing how to use it, 25% and an incredible performance will give you about 50%. Some things make a major difference, others need other things to compliment them and help you get to the next level.
 
However, getting back to Middleman's comment....the worst thing you can do is try to hack your way through things on gear that may not be considered "pro recording". Consumer recording gear is just that...middle of the road and below. Sometimes the converters may be dirty sounding, but in some instances that can actually work to your benefit. It all depends on what you know and how you make things work.
 
Short story to an already too long post...please forgive me....I'm always a bit long winded, but mean well. :) I recorded a scratch guitar track for a client just to see if he liked the idea I came up with. I was at my home and using one of my little internet boxes that doesn't have a good soundcard in it. Just a stock Realtek HD with asio4all drivers. I run my stuff into a Mackie 32x8 console at my house and into the pc. So I do this guitar track and send it to the client. He ok's it and I'll go to my studio that night and cut it for real.
 
I take the tracks with me and import them into Sonar on my good recording pc. RME Fireface 800....pretty good card I think. I record some new guitars. When I listen back to this track that was done on the Realtek at 16/44, for some odd reason it sounds different than the new one I just did. Like...it fit the tune more. The new ones I did sounded like too clean or something. I can't put my finger on what the deal was there, but it had to be the dirty Realtek and the fact that it was 16/44 and just worked for this tune. I can pick my guitar sound out when I use that Realtek every time. There is something about it that just sounds different that I like that I don't seem to get out of my good stuff. My front end is better at the studio, the guitar pre-amp that I used was the same with the same routing via XLX into a console, the patches used were the same...it just sounded different.
 
I wound up using the Realtek take....go figure! But my point in sharing that is, sometimes gear that isn't so good can make a difference for the better. It depends on how you go about it really. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you fall on your face. That's to be expected in this field though...so don't ever stress if you're having a hard time. Try to find the root of the problem and fix it. Sometimes that root may mean something new, other times it's something YOU can do to remedy the problem on your own. When it comes to that, make sure that "Something new" is the right choice especially if it will cost a few bucks. But never lose sight of doing things the right way before the sound even hits the gear because that's the most important of all. Remember...garbage in, garbage out no matter what front end or gear you have. :) Hope this helps...thanks for reading and I'm sorry about the novel.
 
-Danny

Well said Danny, although I'd have to disagree with you on the 5% difference for recording g technique - I reckon mic placement on ac gtr makes a HUGE difference!

Have a whole lot of fun, Glenn - look forward to hearing samples!

Is it the difference of a $3500 mic and sound proofed studio that I don't have? (I have an Apex 460 on the guitar and used a SM58 for the vox.)

 
Yes, that's part of it. Don't let anyone tell you hardware doesn't matter. It's also a lot of other things. Mic settings that you can't get in a noisey room. The use of high grade gates and spectral effects. You can EQ something to death in a noisey-reflective room and just the sound of the room will prevent you from constructing that presence, especially with a good mike. I have one that can hear my oven clock in the kitchen at a relatively low gain setting. Environment is everything in creating an atmosphere that reacts only to what you're recording.

Crg

Is it the difference of a $3500 mic and sound proofed studio that I don't have? (I have an Apex 460 on the guitar and used a SM58 for the vox.)

 
Yes, that's part of it. Don't let anyone tell you hardware doesn't matter. It's also a lot of other things. Mic settings that you can't get in a noisey room. The use of high grade gates and spectral effects. You can EQ something to death in a noisey-reflective room and just the sound of the room will prevent you from constructing that presence, especially with a good mike. I have one that can hear my oven clock in the kitchen at a relatively low gain setting. Environment is everything in creating an atmosphere that reacts only to what you're recording.

Room is HUGELY important, as the room becomes part of the sound and you can't get rid of it.
 
I use one of those "wrap-around" mic isolating thingies when doing narration, makes all the difference in the world not to have any reflections coming back at me. But treating a room seems to follow two paths: Getting someone who really knows what they're doing, or trial-and-error with crossed fingers. I have an "accidental" live-end/dead-end room because I started treating the room, then had to stop. When I resumed, I found that I actually got two entirely different vocal characters in the treated and untreated sections, and that both had their uses. So I just left it as is.
 
Who was it who said "Art is enamoured of chance"?

For those who can not afford, or the wife won't let us sound treat a room....

ARC it.

You rule Dean - I love this forum.