help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording

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davidrr
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2011/01/10 15:58:25 (permalink)

help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording

hi, i have bought so many mic pres and mic i cant never get the mix right, i have heard music from people who made song on the mic preamps and mic that i got, but i can never get that sound, i just wish i knew how to eq,
my voice is kinda harsh and i dont know where to eq and by how much, i had my little sister on the mix and she sounded good in the mix, anyone mind telling me where to eq

update
____________________

hey guys , i record 2 vocals,  one with hpf at 220  and a vocal without hpf (raw)

http://www.2shared.com/file/73m2Sy8k/New_WinRAR_archive.html

i also added a note when and where the vocal should be place, the beat is also included.

thanks to the ones that helped




post edited by davidrr - 2011/01/12 23:06:49
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    Beagle
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:05:02 (permalink)
    are you sure it's not just "self recorded voice hatred syndrome?"  most people don't like the sound of their own voice recorded, at least at first.  get some opinions of others.

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    #2
    davidrr
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:08:26 (permalink)
    no, its harsh vocals, mind giving me where tips where to eq,
    #3
    dlogan
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:09:49 (permalink)
    Common frustration finding that right tone - don't give up! You'll need to find what works for your voice. It may be that your microphone is not a good fit for your voice. But as far as making the best of what you got and wanting to know where to eq, try out the Voxengo SPAN free VST spectrum analyzer. It will help you know what's going on in certain frequencies -and especially helpful can be the function where you do Control-left click and can listen in on what's going on in certain frequencies. That can help you pinpoint an area where you need to do some narrow EQ cut. Experiment with some different reverb settings too, to soften your vocals. But I also agree with Reece - get an objective opinion.
    #4
    davidrr
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:19:29 (permalink)
    i bought the new blue spark microphone, i dont know where to eq ether. but thanks guys, i'll keep trying

    mic pre i have now are the voicemaster pro, and art mpa gold with custom tube
    #5
    dlogan
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:24:12 (permalink)
    Sorry there are unfortunately many variables and without hearing your vocal track we can't just say "cut 3db at 4.5kHZ with a 2.0Q" or something that specific. But the SPAN plug-in can help you find the harsh frequencies.
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    batsbrew
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:25:27 (permalink)
    eq is learned by only experience.

    there is no 'harsh' frequency, that is harsh on everything....
    it's so much more complicated than that.


    you need time mixing.

    only time mixing, will ever teach you anything that you can actually use.

    that said, get as many books on mixing, as you can find, and devour them.

    while you're doing that, practice mixing.



    here's a couple of neat articles


    http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Aug01/articles/usingeq.asp

    http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0400/OctaveEQ.htm




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    davidrr
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:30:12 (permalink)
    dlogan


    Common frustration finding that right tone - don't give up! You'll need to find what works for your voice. It may be that your microphone is not a good fit for your voice. But as far as making the best of what you got and wanting to know where to eq, try out the Voxengo SPAN free VST spectrum analyzer. It will help you know what's going on in certain frequencies -and especially helpful can be the function where you do Control-left click and can listen in on what's going on in certain frequencies. That can help you pinpoint an area where you need to do some narrow EQ cut. Experiment with some different reverb settings too, to soften your vocals. But I also agree with Reece - get an objective opinion.


    thanks, i will try that plugin, also will you like to help me if i upload a verse the the beat?


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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:30:34 (permalink)
    It might be the custom tube.


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    davidrr
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:36:46 (permalink)
    i been useing the voicemaster pro lately, my vocal sounds a little bit hardness/harshes, but i will use the plugin right now and mess around with the eq....... again
    #10
    dlogan
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:44:10 (permalink)
    Just sent you a PM...
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    Beagle
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 16:55:31 (permalink)
    yeah, I agree with these guys - you can't say "EQ out the "harshness" by cutting X freq at X bandwidth"

    it's not that simple - especially since there are different types and ranges of voices.

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    Rothchild
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 18:31:55 (permalink)
    Hi davidrr,

    Have you tried this with eq, it's the tried, trusted, true and tested way to do things.

    Take your vocal track and insert a Sonitus EQ, grab node 3 (could be any node really but go with me here) and drag it to the top of the display (maximum gain), then in the area underneath the display go to the Q setting for node three, you can turn it up by pressing and holding the mouse button on the number and pushing the mouse up. As you do this you'll see the point, that node three makes, become sharper until it makes a pointy bump.

    Now, with your vocal playing, sweep the frequency of node three up and down (ie move it from left to right and back again across the display of the EQ) When you hear it accentuating the most of the sound you don't like (the harsh bit) stop and pull the node all the way down. You should hear that frequency start to disappear. This is often referred to as notching out frequencies, what you've done is turn the volume down of that particular frequency, the higher the Q level the sharper the notch (and with it comes other effects which you may notice) you'll start to learn how much or little ! and or gain you need to address the issues you're finding in your vocal recording.

    What I tend to do is use a series of small, fairly sharp notches to get the basic vocal in shape, I'm not shy to use more than one eq to achieve this (because little and often seems to work better). Once I've got rid of the bits I don't like I use another eq to turn up the bits I do like! When I'm boosting I'll tend to use lower Q levels than when I'm cutting as they sound more natural.

    Hope this helps, good luck and have fun!

    Child
    #13
    Slugbaby
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 19:24:30 (permalink)
    Rothchild


    Hi davidrr,

    Have you tried this with eq, it's the tried, trusted, true and tested way to do things.

    Take your vocal track and insert a Sonitus EQ, grab node 3 (could be any node really but go with me here) and drag it to the top of the display (maximum gain), then in the area underneath the display go to the Q setting for node three, you can turn it up by pressing and holding the mouse button on the number and pushing the mouse up. As you do this you'll see the point, that node three makes, become sharper until it makes a pointy bump.

    Now, with your vocal playing, sweep the frequency of node three up and down (ie move it from left to right and back again across the display of the EQ) When you hear it accentuating the most of the sound you don't like (the harsh bit) stop and pull the node all the way down. You should hear that frequency start to disappear. This is often referred to as notching out frequencies, what you've done is turn the volume down of that particular frequency, the higher the Q level the sharper the notch (and with it comes other effects which you may notice) you'll start to learn how much or little ! and or gain you need to address the issues you're finding in your vocal recording.

    What I tend to do is use a series of small, fairly sharp notches to get the basic vocal in shape, I'm not shy to use more than one eq to achieve this (because little and often seems to work better). Once I've got rid of the bits I don't like I use another eq to turn up the bits I do like! When I'm boosting I'll tend to use lower Q levels than when I'm cutting as they sound more natural.

    Hope this helps, good luck and have fun!

    Child

    That's a good suggestion - i use it quite often. 
    Although I never, never ever grab Node 3...

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    bitflipper
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 19:55:57 (permalink)
    You're making the assumption that EQ is the issue and the remedy, which may not be the case. "Harsh" has no formal definition, and there are other factors that can make for an unpleasant recording.

    Yes, by all means post a sample. Maybe a few seconds in context, with instruments, and a few seconds with the vocal soloed. I'm sure that will yield more pragmatic advice.


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    davidrr
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 20:23:13 (permalink)
    i will upload a song tomorrow, i have family over, thank you all who posted tips, i will try them tomorrow, thanks guys for helping. also the voicemaster pro preamp as a ''voice optimised eq'' with ''MID 1k'''  ''absence 3K9'' warmth and tuning,  dont know if i should use that. talk to you guys tomorrow, thanks,
    #16
    sane1
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 20:28:02 (permalink)
    I remember an article from Phil Ramone many years ago about his production of a Billy Joel album (I think it was the one that had AllenTown.

    Anyway he left all the EQ flat; and spent hours getting the sound he wanted for each instrument and voice from the mics and placement of the mics.

    So, yes EQ may not be your problem.

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    davidrr
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 20:37:15 (permalink)
    sane1


    I remember an article from Phil Ramone many years ago about his production of a Billy Joel album (I think it was the one that had AllenTown.

    Anyway he left all the EQ flat; and spent hours getting the sound he wanted for each instrument and voice from the mics and placement of the mics.

    So, yes EQ may not be your problem.


    you might be right, i recorded some songs 2 years ago with a akg 414 (cost me $1000) and a mxl 990 ($50 was my 1st mic) and it didnt sound muddy, it has to be the mic then, anyway i will upload tomorrow
    #18
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/10 20:55:58 (permalink)
    sane1


    I remember an article from Phil Ramone many years ago about his production of a Billy Joel album (I think it was the one that had AllenTown.

    Anyway he left all the EQ flat; and spent hours getting the sound he wanted for each instrument and voice from the mics and placement of the mics.

    So, yes EQ may not be your problem.


    Perhaps you are thinking of Cold Spring Harbor... the first pressing?


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    Rothchild
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/11 03:09:52 (permalink)
    i just wish i knew how to eq,


    Yes EQ may not be the answer to the problem, but how to use it is answering part of the OP's question.

    Child
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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/11 06:13:40 (permalink)
    Davidrr, if your voice, recorded plain with a decent microphone, sounds harsh to you, there's definately no EQ setting that will soften it.
    Some delay or reverb together with doubling and compression might do something, but the way I see it, EQ is not at all the right tool for trying to tackle your problem. It's like using a knife when putty is needed. 

    If you are not familiar with hearing your recorded voice, surely a big part of the problem is that you simply did not know what your voice is like.

    A dry recording, a good take with a decent mic, tells you what your voice is like, and there's not that much you can do to actually change your voice. You can enhance the good sides (or accidentally the bad sides) and give it some ambience with FX, but you can't make Tom Waits sound like Frank Sinatra.

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    #21
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/11 06:50:49 (permalink)
    One thing to consider is that any Channel Strip that comes from the store with a built in De-Esser may just have a basic harshness problem? Why else would they put a De-Esser in it? Probably to counter the damage that the rocket scientist design is doing to your signal.

    Get the AKG 414 back and get your self a simple preamp that is well made and be happy.

    Go buy a 1 channel John Hardy M1 and you'll never look back.

    After you're done recording you can use a EQ during mixing. You'll use a little hi-pass on the vocals... and you'll probably use the EQ to notch out a room resonance or two... and you may use a bit of hi shelf boost to make everything sound "glossy".

    A great preamp will make any mic sound better. A great mic needs a good preamp.

    You need a good preamp.

    Good Luck.

    best regards,
    mike


    post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/01/11 06:54:41


    #22
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/11 07:19:13 (permalink)
    If it were me, I'd just use the Pre-amp in the Voicemaster - BYPASS ALL THE OTHER SECTIONS as you don't know WHAT they're doing to your raw signal and there's plenty of scope for the unit to add harshness where you don't want it.

    There's an EQ, a Compressor, a De-esser,  Saturation unit.

    Any one of these applied incorrectly at the tracking stage is printed for good. You'll never get the smooth, polished sound you want if the raw track isn't sitting right.

    It's a Focusrite unit, so the pre's shouldn't be that bad, even for a budget model (weren't they actually modelled on a Focusrite Red? Green? One or the other definitely)

    Make sure you're not overloading the pre-amp and record again.

    This will give you a nice level playing field to start tackling your problem, if indeed you have a problem.

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    #23
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/11 07:57:17 (permalink)
    The OP says the voice of his little sister sounds fine (with the same gear and settings, I assume). That's why I guess the recording is truthfull  (yet unpolished), but the OPs idea of his own voice is not.

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    #24
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/11 10:09:24 (permalink)
    David, I'd like to hear your voice before I even attempt to comment on EQ or other solutions.

    Several people here, in the past have made similar claims about their voice, and it was simply a bias as Beagle mentioned above that they were not used to hearing their true voice.....which in fact sounded pretty good to others. The truth is, if other people perceive your voice as enjoyable, don't argue with them, if they are knowledgeable on sound, and not just family & friends blowing smoke.....

    Lets hear what you're talking about..... who knows, you might be right.....

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    Ron Vogel
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/11 18:40:17 (permalink)
    One thing you need to be aware of (and sorry if someone else mentioned it already)...YOU may be the problem with the mix and not even know it.

    A good mix will bring out the vox loud and clear. Remember, every instrument in a mix needs it's own space (even vox). Many people will crowd the mix, and eq the vox to cut through...and then you face harshness problem.

    From an engineer's perspective, the mix is not in the instruments...but in the space around them.

    Space can be created with a combination of EQ and panning...among other things.


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    Philip
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/11 21:30:51 (permalink)
    Ah! The noob-vox syndrome.  I suffer a tad of that daily.  To-night my vox is atrocious and hoarse ... no matter how much I warm up.  My registers are good for half-an-octave.  Oh woe is me.

    Verily verily, A vox is a fickle and delicate instrument.  +1 to all comments and struggles, thus.

    There's so so much to do ... and so little time.

    Philip  
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    #27
    davidrr
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/12 22:47:03 (permalink)
    hey guys , i record 2 vocals,  one with hpf at 220  and a vocal without hpf (raw)

    http://www.2shared.com/file/73m2Sy8k/New_WinRAR_archive.html

    i also added a note when and where the vocal should be place, the beat is also included.

    thanks to the ones that helped
    #28
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/13 01:55:17 (permalink)
    I'd be interested but I will not download a file like that, sorry.  I prefer hearing it only streamed. Especially because it's a .rar so I don't even know what's in there, .wmas or .exes.

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    #29
    Rothchild
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    Re:help!!! harsh vocal!! i lost all motivation on recording 2011/01/13 03:19:08 (permalink)
    Hope you don't mind davidrr, I've stripped out one of your vox tracks and re-uploaded here (so folk can see it's just a .wav and not a dubious payload hidden in a rar (which it's not)) https://www.yousendit.com/download/bFlHQ3QyRSt0QTN2Wmc9PQ the file expires on 20-01-11 but if you want me to take it down I can.

    On a very cursory listen (admittedly on my laptop, so of limited value) I'm not really hearing harsh but I am hearing fairly nasal / bunged up. I'm hearing an improvement as I sweep an eq notch around 1khz. I'm sure others here will be able to offer a more considered take.

    Also, you can save a bunch of space on you computer by recording your vocals in to a mono track, there's no real need for rap vox to be in a stereo file, you're just eating up twice as much hard drive space for no real gain.

    Child
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