Beepster
1) Actually I did find that in X2 there was a bit of arbitrary Take Lane creation and maybe even in X3 but they seem to do what I expect them to now. Maybe it's different on your system but for me essentially with each new record into a track (using Comp record mode) a new lane is created UNLESS you record further down the timeline where there is no other data on the same track (so if there is no overlap).

 
I don't know for certain how the extra take lanes appear. I just know that I never, at any point in the song in question, either (a) recorded 15 takes of one section, or (b) explicitly asked to create new take lanes. But 15 take lanes there are (well, 12 now I deleted the empties).

For you, and I am not 100% certain on this, I think if you want to force your new take into the same lane (or a desired target lane) you can use the Record Arm button on the target Lane.

This is kind of the problem... we're forced to dealing with Take Lanes whether we want to or not. I don't want to have to open it up, pick a Lane, close it, start recording. I just want it to not make a ton of unnecessary ones, for whatever reason. I have no need for them 95% of the time. I'm not going to add this extra work into my flow. I've already picked the track to record to, having to pick a sub-track as well is wasting my valuable time.
 

I don't think I've ever used that option because as you say... unless you remove something manually or create a new lane manually, there is always going to be data in an auto generated Take Lanes.

 
Except I often delete things that I record, or undo the recording, or whatever. And the take lanes linger on. Again, I have no idea how it gets into this state, but it does, and it's a nuisance. Probably it's when I record something in one track and drag it to another track. I don't know why the old empty lanes don't always get reused.
 

3) Again, that would actually severely screw up my workflow. Flatten Layers totally doesn't exist anymore (and maybe it should for your style of workflow) but what you CAN do (and I do this often) is just use Flatten Comp then delete the original Lanes (well I do it a little different than that but the principle is the same).

But that's exactly the problem - I'm not comping anything, and I don't want to flatten or join any of my clips. If I was, this would work fine. But I'm not. 9 times out of 10 I have a bunch of sequential clips, end-to-end, sometimes crossfaded. I don't need take lanes or layers for this at all, but I can see a usability benefit in providing me with at least 2 lanes so that I can see the full boundaries of each clip clearly. There's no usability benefit in giving me 15 lanes where 13 of them are empty at any given point in my track.
 

5) I actually do record section by section (especially when I'm writing... I usually rerecord full takes afterward in new tracks) and I record WAY more than 5 takes per section.

I almost never record multiple takes per section. Occasionally I do it for solos, and we do it when I'm recording our vocalist. Otherwise, I almost always just record/undo/repeat until I get the section right. So I don't have anything to flatten. I just want it so that if I do have to open up the take lanes, I don't have 14 empty ones and have to scroll off the bottom to find the clip I'm working with.
 

Arrangement is simply awkward in Sonar in general [...] Biggest problem I though I see with arrangment is the fact Sonar gets FAR too cranky splitting and moving lots of data at once

 
Yup... I've complained about this at length in the past so I won't repeat myself here. But I do expect that my constant cut/copy/drag behaviour helps confuse the take lanes. It wasn't ideal with layers either but at least Rebuild Layers was just one click away and cleaned everything up instantly.
 

This is why IF I decide to go into "arranger" mode I try to work with as few clips as possible. [..] After the tune is flowing how I like I lock myself into that structure and retrack the finals and polish up any MIDI programming.

 
For me, life's too short to retrack everything. I'm learning that Sonar handles things better if I leave the crossfades to the end, at least. Fewer overlaps seems to mean fewer problems.
 

Again I don't see the big deal about bouncing after the record part and I'm not even sure how layers would be better.

Layers weren't better for MIDI in this case; this is mostly just an observation of how the layer/take lane concept metaphor doesn't work well with MIDI where there's an expectation to be able to build up the track bit by bit (which one doesn't often do with audio as you'd just be raising the noise floor).
 

I'm not sure what you're saying here. That doesn't actually make sense. Having multiple sections of clips in a lane would not affect the soloed comps or the comping function at all. If someone said that either they don't understand what's up or it was misconstrued. I literally don't know how to respond to that.

I'm saying that (a) the existing comp system expects to be able to solo one lane and mute the others - that's how Flatten Comp works. So it 'needs' to have these mute and solo options for each lane, and expects each take to be in a different lane (instead of reusing 2 lanes to minimise the vertical space).
 
I mean, if I do Flatten Comp on 2 different sections, the second flatten will mute the Comp lane created when I flattened the first section, breaking things. In fact I can't see how this is useful unless you use one of precisely 2 workflows - either you record the whole song then comp each track, or you record a section, comp it, then move on. (And even then you probably have to move the comp to the latest comp lane since it creates a new one each time, right?) Neither of those are how I like to work - because I'm not comping! - so I get all the downsides of these assumptions with none of the upsides. I'm being asked to 'comp as I go along' despite never wanting to comp at all.
 
It worked fine in layers, where comping was done on a per-clip basis. On the rare occasion where I might want to comp something, I can mute or isolate clips (or part of clips, at least back then) and that works fine. I can do that in a minimal number of layers too. Now, it's not exactly a disaster, I just leave Take Lanes closed and hope I never have to open it. It's just annoying that when I do have to open it, everything is a mess.

I've mentioned this before in other threads, but something else I do to keep from getting lost with Take Lanes and to keep myself organized is to record vocal sections of the song on different tracks.
 
For example, if Verse 1 and Chorus 1 are best sung and recorded together, I'll have a vocal track for V1-C1 Raw.  If Verse 2 and Chorus 2 are best sung separately, I'll have two more vocal tracks, V2 Raw, C2 Raw and so on.  When I'm done recording vocals, I clone each of those raw vocal tracks, mute and hide the originals.  I then go through the clones, auditioning the takes and assembling the vocal.
 
Probably more work, but it works for me:)

@kylo... Thing is, for what it sounds like you want, it's really simple to acheive and although my experience with layers is limited to X1 layers (which I can only assume are the same as the 8.5 layers... maybe not) I think if you took some time to work WITH the new options instead of against them you'd have a much better time.
 
Auto splits can be completely avoided while recording using SoS.
 
"Promoting" entire clips is a single click task (which is actually much easier than the Layers methods from what I recall of them).
 
The ONLY thing that seems to be missing for what you want is "Flatten Layers" in the Lanes format so that all the clips populate empty areas of existing lanes and that can be done with a simple select and Shift Drag move. Perhaps the Bakers could include that to nail down that final aspect of the old workflow. I don't see it hurting anything if they did (from a design standpoint).
 
From my perspective you are making things MUCH harder on yourself but you've made up your mind so I won't go on about workflows. I track and edit INCESSANTLY the way you are describing (and many many other ways) and it's really simple. Actually what you are describing is literally the quickest/most problem free style of track/edit of the bunch... even using Comp Mode recording.
 
Seriously if I were doing what you are I would simply remain in Comp mode (even though SoS would avoid splits altogether while recording IIRC), open lanes, swipe once to remove any and all incidental splits at the end of the clips (again can be totally avoided by recording in SoS but it's such a MINOR thing to correct it's not worth switching modes and really only needs to be done if there is noise at the end of other clips) then simply click in the bottom half of the desired clip to "Promote" the clip I want to be heard.
 
Seriously the swipe takes half a second but the time saved by being able to just click a clip to make it audible while muting the others completely DESTROYS the time needed to do the same task in the old workflows. DESTROYS it! And of course isn't even necessary if the correct record mode is chosen (which to me would take MORE time than just a simple swipe... even though it takes half a second. I just don't like having to remember what mode I'm in while tracking).
 
You don't even have to use flatten or any of that crap if your takes are good. Just click in the bottom half of the click you want to use. Don't even worry about the Solo/Mute/Flatten/etc crap. Insanely simple to do. I only use comping because I micromanage my takes... sometimes down to a single note.
 
If you're gonna bail on Sonar over this all I can say is you are making a mistake because what you are saying you want to do is literally some of the easiest editing possible if you know the tricks. I highly doubt any other DAW makes it easier.
 
If you have other issues then sure (the arranger thing is a biggie) but I do not see how simple one click editing like that can be made any easier/faster.
 
Whatevs... good luck to ya whatever you do but you're missing out on some really convenient stuff over some simple misunderstandings about the workflow.
 
Cheers.

@Kylo... re: "This would be easier if Sonar didn't throw in 10 empty lanes from time to time!"
 
Not going to go through your whole post again (but really I work section by section as I write as well and often times during my final tracking... it works totally fine for me). However that comment raises a red flag that something is wrong. There should not be empty lanes getting added and certainly not that many. I was going under the assumption you were talking about empty space in populated lanes. Just tons of empty lanes is not something I've ever experienced in my workflow.
 
So either something is going on with your install and/Sonar config or something is being done to create the empty lanes. One way I could see that maybe happening is if you are deleting unwanted clips/takes in the parent track as you record instead of using "Undo". As I track I Undo every take I know I screwed up and the new lane + Clip are removed (and the previous take is promoted again).
 
Anyway... I'm not going to spend time trying to change your mind. I just think in your case, now that I have a better idea of how you work/want to work all it would take is some minor workflow alterations and you'd be zooming along.
 
As to the other stuff I could recommend/point out a bunch of stuff but yeah... feeling like a bag of smashed artichokes today and it seems pointless. Good luck with whatever you end up doing. If you DO decide you want to try to sort out your Sonar workflow I'd be happy to help.
 
 

Beepster
 
As far as editing the old way (like having creative overlaps and fancier fades than the simple X-Fades of the Comp Tool) the answer is actually frustratingly simple (protect your forehead because you may slap it).
 
If you want a straight up, old school Crop Edit workflow... just use the TOP half of the clip instead of the bottom half. So hover your cursor over the end of the clip in the top half (or more accurately upper middle quarter of the clip) and now you can crop that clip independently of all the others without even changing modes. If you want to create fades hover over the end of the "Header" of the clip (the bar at the top of the clip). If you want to do old school Range Select moves swipe over the top half of the clip.

 
I did know this so no forehead slapping required.  I just think it's a poor UX - too easy to get it wrong.  I want to be able to crossfade (say) without worrying if I'm a hair's breadth off target.
 

 
Basically now when I look at audio clips it is in two to three parts. Bottom half... hardcore comping. Top half traditional editing. The Header at the top I consider the "Handle" for selecting (without promoting... this would be how I select for Ctrl K mute/unmute) and moving clips around.
 
Really, to me the biggest PITA is the sheer amount of tooltip states when handling clips and trying to hook into them reliably (as in sometimes the cursor/tooltip doesn't change when I want). When I run into those issues I either a) expand the lanes vertically a little to make the clips bigger (and thus the hotspot targets easier to hook into) or b) switch to dedicated tools from the HUD (usually when I need to make a specific action over and over again and don't want to futz around with the Smart Tool hotspots).
 

That's pretty much my point and I agree with you - I just think it's too cumbersome because of the accuracy you need.  And it didn't use to be.  For what it's worth, I often find the normal (track not lane) slip editing accuracy required a bit too finickety (sp?) at times too, so it's not just lanes that I think provide a sub-optimal experience in this way.
 
Another FWIW, I also hide the header as I already think we're wasting too much vertical space with the newer widgets (vs 8.x) so every pixel counts.
 

Oh and I menat o mention.. I think now that maybe the reason we have  minimum height for lanes and the stupid auto Lanes zoom thingie is specifically because if the lanes got to small all the hotspots would become too jumbled/inaccessable like they were with layers.
 
I would still like to be able to disable both of those things so I can drag them out as needed to the height I want.
 
I also want an Archive and Hide Lanes option. That would make the workflow perfect for me. Archive to remove uneeded data from system resources but still available if I want to return to those takes and Hide to clean up my tracks Lanes Area after I have the takes/comps I want (again without losing the data in case I want to return and make a new comp).
 
I have to do that stuff manually by cloning the track, deleting unwanted material and/or creating a new track, dragging the desired data into it then Archiving/Hiding the original.
 
 
Layers most definitely could not grant any of those wishes.
 
Again.... different strokes and all that but for me, in regards to layers... good riddance.
 

Kylotan,  Sonar does the same thing when midi loop recording.  It's so cumbersome,  especially when all I want is for all of the midi data to be in one consolidated clip.  Not only do you have a bunch of unwanted takes,  but you also end up with empty takes that you have clean up manually.  
 
This is why I at least want the option of COMPLETELY disabling Take Lanes!

Kylotan
If you know how to find the magical menu option that lets you remove empty take lanes (hint to all: you have to right-click on a clip in the parent/composite lane to see 'Remove Empty Take Lanes'... why the hell it's so hidden and doesn't appear when you right click (a) the track, (b) a take lane, I don't know),

Having just searched for this, thanks for the tip, but it only works if you have a clip to click on.  Otherwise there appears to be no way to get rid of a bunch of empty lanes except by deleting them one by one by clicking the  'x' for each.  (?)  I had to create a clip in the main track (which was empty) for the option to appear.

Beepster
Already mentioned this one earlier. Select the Lanes you want to remove (they select just like tracks do with a blue button in the top left corner of the lane controls... admittedly there should be some indication there that there is a selection square there but it is). So Shift or Ctrl select the Lanes you want to go away, hold Ctrl, Click the X on one of the selected lanes. They will all go away.

Thanks Beep.  To get rid of all of them it's easiest to just drag out a selection region across the lanes which selects them all, then Ctr-click the "x".

Beepster
I think you can just drag down the left side to to multi select (like you would with a series of tracks)...

Thanks again for this bit, I didn't even know you could select tracks by clicking on the first (blue button) then dragging onto the others.  So yes, this does work well for selecting clips with the same procedure, and then you're right there for the ctl-click.
 

Kylotan
 
Why would I want to do that when I could just arm the track, record into the track, and slip edit automatic crossfades as needed? 8.5 did that. Platinum almost does that, but creates tons of take lanes into the bargain. I refuse to do extra work to compensate for this backwards step in functionality.

Good point!  There should still be an option to go back to the old workflow.  I understand that some may find the new features to be better for their workflow,  but that doesn't mean that's the case for every user,  and in every situation.  
There needs to be an option to disable "Take Lanes" completely,  on a track by track basis,  and on a Global basis.  It's a WIN/WIN situation.  The users that like Take Lanes would still be able to use them.  The users who don't want to use Take Lanes can disable them. 

@kylo... I was pointing out a couple things that I, personally, would do in those situations.
 
You can just use the single lane like I originally stated. Also I think there is a prefs option that allows you to disable "Create New Lane On Overlap". Or it might be a Track Views Option. I'll check it out later.
 
@kb420... You've just been repeating the same thing. As I said earlier on you'd have to replace Lanes WITH something. "Disable them" doesn't make sense. There needs to be a clip management scheme of some kind.
 
@wetdentist.... That sounds like the Mute Tool muting areas of the clips. That was the old recommended way of "Comping" and... IMO... was horrendous (I just manually edited clips instead). Of course we don't have to worry about that now but if you ever end up using the old versions and that happens that's likely the culprit. The Mute tool still exists in SPlat too so it can still happen but the Mute Tool is kind of buried now so it's quite hard to trigger.
 
Cheers.

@Kylo... I just figured out how to make your workflow happen in SPlat in TWO different ways. It's quite simple.
 
Workflow 1: Parent Track
 
1) Go to Edit > Preferences > Project - Record then
  a) deselect "Create New Lanes On Overlap" and
  b) Choose "Sound On Sound" as the recording mode (not even sure that's necessary but it's what I did)
 
2) On any new tracks quickly open the Lanes and enable the Record Arm button on the lane (there should only be one empty lane at this point). Maybe this could even be setup as a Track Template so you don't have to do it every time.
 
3) Close Lanes. You really don't have to open them again at all if you don't want to and in fact for creating X-Fades the NEED to remain closed.
 
4) In the Track View Options menu make sure Auto Crossfade is selected (I think it's the default)
 
The result is you can record all your segments as you like. ALL of them will get recorded into that one lane even if you record OVER a previous take (I'll describe what that does in a minute).
 
If you want to create overlapped clips just select them in the Parent Track (with Lanes closed) and drag them into each other as you normally would. Your X-Fade is created automatically.
 
Now THAT action (creating an X-Fade) will unfortunately create a new lane and the more you do it you may end up getting more Lanes but SOnar does seem to recycle the lanes sometimes. Not sure what the circumstances are where that would happen. It does seem a little random and should be looked at by the Bakers because to me disabling the "Create New Lanes on Overlap" should at least keep it to ONE new lane for overlap.
 
BUT... it doesn't matter because you really shouldn't have to open Lanes any way. It just works in the Parent Track based on what I was just doing. You can just wait until you are done your structuring and flatten or just totally ignore it.
 
HOWEVER here is another workflow that COMPLETELY stops those extra lanes from happening and allows you to work COMPLETELY in the single Lane at all times. The only "problem" is you have to have that lane visible while editing and Auto Crossfades are done with the Comp Tool instead of forcing the fade across any overlap.
 
Workflow 2: Single Lane
 
So with all the same settings as before just record into the track. All clips will populate the same (armed) lane and if you record over part of an existing clip the new clip will "Overwrite" that section of the old one BUT the clip remains and can be slip edited out back to full size.
 
*Be careful though not to record over the ENTIRE old clip if you want to keep it because then it just completely gets overwritten and requires an Undo action to recover (thus losing the new clip)... so in that case just create and arm a second Lane momentarily or do it in another track.
 
You can drag the clips around wherever you want in the Lane and they will not cause any damage until you drop them. If you drop them to overlap another clip it will overwrite that section. At this point you can blend the clips and adjust the start/end points by just moving the split. This incurs the Crop Tool and it behaves normally EXCEPT because there are no other clips in other lanes it is purely a cropping/crossfade tool.
 
Sooo...
 
1) Arm Track and First Lane
 
2) Record your segments (with or without Lanes open). *Be careful not to completely record over other clips you want to keep but partially recording over them is fine and leaves them completely recoverable via slip editing.
 
3) With the Lane open drag the clips around wherever you like. Dropping a clip onto another or dragging it into another will make the selected clip overwrite the older clip (either partially or completely so again do not completely obscure any old clips you wish to retain). No action is taken until you "Drop" the clip.
 
4) Once the clip has be dropped where you want to create an overlap with another clip drag the split Left/Right to adjust where the first clip ends and the second begins. Drag up and Down to adjust the X-Fade (this is Comp tool action).
 
5) If you ABSOLUTELY need two clips playing at the same time in the same track without any X-Fade action (which I would personally use another track because multiple clips at once in one track sounds like crap to me but whatever) THEN you can create a new Lane and put the overlapping clip there. Both clips will be active and you can use the old editing features in the top half of the clips to edit them together.
 
At MOST you end up with two Lanes (and that's only if you want to clips playing full blast at the same time).
 
To make up for the extra screenspace taken up by the single Lane being opened you can minimize the Parent Track/Track Control area while editing. Just pretend the Lane is your track while you edit.
 
 
==================================================
 
Either of these workflows will force Sonar to do what you seem to want. Admittedly the fact Workflow 1 does create Lanes on X-Fades is a little weird and I think this might be a semi sort of bug or unintended design "flaw" (it should obey the Overlap rule set in preferences) but you shouldn't even have to be opening Lanes. I do think it might qualify as a Problem Report though because it does not seem to work as it should while editing and if it was only intended for Recording it shoudl be expanded to editing as well.
 
Workflow 2 requires Lanes open while editing but ONLY while editing and does pretty much exactly what you seem to want. The fact a lane has to be armed seems really inconsequential compared to how much you seem to want this style of tracking/editing.
 
In BOTH scenarios it really seems like WAY less work/hassle/confusion than how this would need to be done with Layers. Layers were insanely unpredictable IME and demanded a lot more post tracking futzing about. With both of these workflows, particularly the 2nd one, you can at least be certain of what's going to happen to the data.
 
After messing with this a bit and seeing how insanely reliable/predictable/easy it all is I cannot see how your rather simple tracking/editing needs cannot be accomplished without issue (and by simple I don't mean that in a bad way... it's just not a complex workflow compared to the spazzo crap I do).
 
It just may be slightly different. If the problem is "It's different, therefore I don't like it" nothing can be done except to move back to 8.5 as you track and edit. Maybe SPlat can be your mixing environment if you find any value in it at all. I also really don't think another DAW is going help much because they all seem to have elaborate editing/layer/lanes schemes. I could be wrong but it will likely be quite different than even the new Sonar.
 
For me though, as easy as that all is (it's very old school/traditional editing... almost like tape splicing) the proper Comping/Lanes workflow is just WAY faster/easier for me and allows me to REALLY do some crazy stuff that would have taken me ages to do before.
 
Anyhoo... I'm mostly posting this because other people HAVE apparently gotten something out of these posts. It would be nice if you gave these things a chance though because it's not nearly as backwards and cumbersome as you seem to think.
 
IIRC you just recently updated from X1 (layers). There were mountains of these threads at first before people started figuring it all out. One COULD say that "Oh those people just left... that's why no one complains anymore" and some people DID give up and move to other products (or stick with the old ones) BUT many many more, who were unhappy (quite vocally in some cases) eventually gave all this stuff a proper go and now like the new tools/methods way better.
 
I've given you (and others) lots of stuff to try/learn/experiment with. If you just give some of it a go and muscle through some of the growing pains (like we all did) you might see the benefit of these workflows.
 
Layers are dead and I seriously doubt they are coming back. Even if the Bakers had any interest in bringing them back at this point it would be next to impossible without destroying a bunch of other stuff. They just would not fit into the program anymore and it would likely cause a buttload of bugs.
 
Again... good luck with whatever you do.
 
Cheers.

Oh and yes... I used X1 which still had layers and they were a nightmare for me. It's not 8.5 but my understanding is Layers worked more or less the same in both.
 
Which I also said upthread. If I had a copy of 8.5 around I'd play with it just to see what the fuss is about but honestly from all the vids I've seen using it really looks like it would be really clunky to use compared to SPlat.