how do i go from sonar to bling bling?

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itsomusiccompany
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2006/06/25 00:28:26 (permalink)

how do i go from sonar to bling bling?

ok, i've been doing my own mastering for years and now i need to find out how other people do things without sending out to a mastering house. i use sonar, gina 24, wavelab, then cd architect. my problem is there are too many variables in the mixdown process. for example, what level should i put the sonar volume at when i mix (til i visually see clipping in the mix waveform? til i hear clipping when i play it in sonar? til i hear clipping when i play it in wavelab?) ok, so i set things to the point i get a pretty full sound in wavelab without obvious clipping, even though the peaks and troughs are cut off on the visual wave. so from this point, i apply my mastering: 1) EQ to boost around 113 and also at 3.6-15kHz. 2) steinberg's puncher (soft, about 30%), and 3) steinberg's peakmaster (pre 1.3, to 0 output). these give the sound a bit of a kick at the low and high, and some compression. the results aren't terrible, but i made this all up and maybe this is all wrong. so can anyone tell me what sorts of recipes they use to get a bigger fuller sound without causing distortion and clipping? i know it's a huge open-ended question but i just need some perspective.
thanks
marlowe
itsomusiccompany.com
#1

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    Thomas Campitelli
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/16 12:55:07 (permalink)
    I want to start by saying that I view mastering as something of a black art. However, your question is so broad that a simple forum answer or set of answers probably will not be of great assistance. I think you may need to look into getting a book on the subject, such as Mastering Audio by Bob Katz. I think that this might begin to fill in some needed background and provide a plan for attacking a mastering project.

    Thomas Campitelli
    http://www.crysknifeband.com
    #2
    chaz
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/16 14:41:19 (permalink)
    One thing you need to do is make sure your mixes are where they need to be before mastering them. I cannot tell you how many times I turn down mastering projects because the mixes are not where they need to be.

    Word of advise from a seasoned mixing/mastering veteran....... Do not leave things to a mastering engineer (i.e. yourself) to fix in the mastering stage when they need to be addressed in the mixing stage.
    #3
    itsomusiccompany
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/16 15:02:38 (permalink)
    replying to Thomas, a couple of reviews on Katz's book indicate he writes with the assumption you know something about mastering. if this is true, is there a really basic book that will make this intimidating subject palatable?

    replying to chaz, can you explain "where they need to be"? the jist of my question is how do you know if the mix is at the right volume (watching the meters on playback in sonar?, look for clipped peaks on the mixdown waveform??, listen for clipping???) i'd set my output level differently depending on which of these i should trust. maybe if i knew that answer i'd get the fullest sound without clipping.
    thanks
    em
    #4
    holderofthehorns
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/16 18:13:59 (permalink)
    Meters can deceive you. They are OK to set basic levels with, but...
    Use your ears.
    Master level out the speakers at conversation level. (about 80-85 dB)
    Listen at extremely quiet volumes. Can you still hear all the parts?

    Listen on very cheesy pc speakers. Use your ears. Still sound good?
    Listen on studio monitors. Use your ears.
    Listen on a boombox. Use your ears.
    Listen in a car. Use your ears.
    Listen loud. Is the bass overwhelming?

    A good mix will sound pretty good on all the playback systems.
    Did I say "Use your ears"?

    Disclaimer: Many books have been written on this subject.
    Professional mixers will tell you they are still learning how to do it.

    Around here, Chaz is one of the respected mixers.
    When he talks, we all listen.
    There are others, too, but Chaz is in this thread.

    Do a forum search on "Chaz" and read some of his stuff.
    He will lead you to many quality articles on mixing and mastering.
    -----------
    All that said, it sounds like you already know more than you are giving yourself credit for.

    Eric Anderson
    HolderOfTheHorns - It's a Viking thing.
    #5
    chaz
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/16 19:36:24 (permalink)
    replying to chaz, can you explain "where they need to be"? the jist of my question is how do you know if the mix is at the right volume (watching the meters on playback in sonar?, look for clipped peaks on the mixdown waveform??, listen for clipping???) i'd set my output level differently depending on which of these i should trust. maybe if i knew that answer i'd get the fullest sound without clipping.

    In answer to "where they need to be".....

    Here is what I listen and look for in any mix:

    1) Is the mix balanced? That is, are track levels fairly balanced across the board or are there some that are too loud in the overall mix?

    (As a side note..... There is more than one way to get a track to cut through a mix without having to raise the volume fader.)

    2) Has a "pocket" been created in which the main vocal can sit without having to fight for the same space with other instruments?

    3) Are the individual tracks tweaked so they can be heard in the mix? The idea is for them to not be fighting against the other tracks while occupying their own "space".

    4) Do the kick and /or bass tracks sound "boomy" in the mix? And which instrument (i.e., kick or bass) is carrying the low end of the tune?

    5) Are tracks being "washed out" by other tracks due to ambience getting in the way. The use of pre-delay and high/low pass filtering is key to getting the ambience out of the way of the individual tracks being sent to it.

    6) How does the mix sound when checking for mono compatability? Are there any problems with anti-phase, phase cancellation, etc.? This is key when mixing, IMO.

    There are other things, but the above are some of the first things I check for when listening to a mix or mixing a project myself.

    Here are some "Rule of Thumb" tips to use when mixing.....

    1) If you want something to stick out in a mix, use a highpass filter to roll off some of the lows.

    2) If you want something to blend in in a mix, use a lowpass filter to roll off some of the highs.

    3) When using EQ..... Use a narrow "Q" (i.e., bandwidth) when cutting and a wide "Q" when boosting frequencies. This principle applies to complimentary EQing as well.

    4) Also along the lines of EQing tracks..... "Cut" if you are trying to make things sound better. "Boost" if you are trying to make things sound different.

    5) Use a highpass filter after effects. This will help the track to be "sit" in the mix better as well as cut down on any "wash out" that can occur.

    6) You cannot cut/boost something that is not already present in a track in the first place.

    7) If something sounds "boomy", cut some at around 50Hz.

    8) If something sounds "muddy", cut some at around 200Hz to 300Hz.

    9) If something sounds "honky", cut some at around 500Hz.

    10) Always check your stereo mix with PAZ or equivalent analyzer to make sure frequencies stay in check.

    Here are some pointers regarding ambience (i.e., reverb).....

    1) Ambience works better when timed to the tempo of the track.

    2) Short ambience tails "push back" a sound in the mix.

    3) Long ambience tails makes a sound "float" in a mix.

    4) Reducing the ambient time of a plate or a room verb to 0.3-0.6 seconds will often make an instrument fuller and bigger sounding, as well as less "in-your-face" without it being obvious that ambience is being used.

    5) Always follow ambience with a highpass filter to control any "wash out" from occurring.

    6) Pre-delay is key in helping a track cut through and sit better in the mix.

    7) Combining a delay with ambience will create movement to a track and make it more interesting to listen to.

    8) Substitute a delay for ambience. They will give movement to a track and sound cleaner for the track as a whole.

    -------

    Wow! That was a lot of typing!

    There are more things to consider when mixing, but put the above things into place and everything else will fall into place, IMO.

    Happy mixing.

    Please excuse any typos. I will correct them later on.

    edits..... typos and rearranging/adding points.
    post edited by chaz - 2006/07/17 01:09:51
    #6
    chaz
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/16 19:53:06 (permalink)
    Thanks for the kind words, John. They are appreciated.
    #7
    Clydewinder
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/16 21:34:29 (permalink)
    nice post chaz, that one's going straight to the printer and up on the wall.


    The Poodle Chews It.


    #8
    chaz
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/17 00:36:58 (permalink)
    Thanks Dave. I added some additional points to the edited post.
    #9
    joeh20_444
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/17 00:58:05 (permalink)
    Thanks for posting that info chaz, it'll definitely go to use!
    #10
    itsomusiccompany
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/17 00:58:38 (permalink)
    thanks for these great production hints. assuming i do all the right things to make all the tracks live together peacefully, i'm still not sure how hot i can make the (unmastered) mix before i clip. after too many listens to a mix, i may get used to and overlook some subtle problems, and i'd like some objective visual guide i can use. if there is none, i'll guess i'll just keep pushing up the volume til it becomes apparent.
    e
    #11
    TakeFlight
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/17 03:17:21 (permalink)
    I'm not an expert, so you may want to defer to one but I know I've read over and over that "hot" and "final mix" shouldn't ever be used in the same sentence. You need to leave enough headroom for the mastering stage. How much? That's a good question. But I know for sure (unless you aren't planning to master it) that you shouldn't be trying to get your final mix as hot as possible.


    Vertical Height
    website | soundclick
    #12
    itsomusiccompany
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    RE: how do i go from sonar to bling bling? 2006/07/17 10:44:06 (permalink)
    i leave headroom but if i mix down too low, no matter how much compression is applied, you miss a lot of the clarity. so to get as much information into the final mix, i try to raise the volume as much as i can get away with and then add a little eq and compression to the result.
    e
    #13
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