labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels

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krizrox
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2011/06/28 13:44:37 (permalink)

labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels

I'm curious. I'm curious how many of you might be experiencing the same thing as I am. For years, starting as far back as say... 1999, I had been labeling CD-Rs (and later on, DVD-R's) with paper labeling products (generally, Neato brand materials). Before I go any further, let me just state that I stopped doing this some years ago because of various problems with labeled discs not functioning in certain players. But prior to that, I had labeled a fair number of discs including some short run duplicates I made for clients (and myself), home movies, data backups, etc. The discs all worked fine in the beginning.

What I have found - at this point in time - is that none of the discs that I had labeled now function. None. Some of these discs haven't been taken out of the jewel cases since day one. None of them have left my house. They were stored as well as could be stored. No ruff stuff.

I can understand why some might work or not work in certain situations but this is now a 100% problem. I can't tell why this is happening. I see no way that the disc could be rendered unplayable or unusable. My guess/theory is A) the adhesive is degrading the plastic or B) the paper labels are shrinking over time and causing the disc to warp ever so slightly - enough to render the disc unusable. I see nothing to the naked eye. These are just guesses.

I am wondering if anyone else is seeing anything similar. Neato is still in business and I assume other companies are making similar products. If this is a common problem, we need to get the word out so that people stop using these paper labeling products. I'll survive but the home movies make me weep. I spent a lot of time dubbing VHS tapes to DVD.

What say you?

Larry Kriz
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    Bajan Blue
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    Re:labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels 2011/06/29 04:11:49 (permalink)
    Hi
    Have you tried different CD / DVD players? I have found over the years that some of the older discs I burnt will only play on certain players, and some only on the system I burnt them on.
    Just a thought.
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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels 2011/06/29 04:38:32 (permalink)
    Hi Larry,

    This is definitely a strange problem, but fortunately for me, not one that I have personally experienced. I have Neato labels as well as Stomper CD labels dating back to the first CD burner I ever owned running Windows 98 SE. All of those discs still work to this day without a problem in my CD players here. As a matter of fact, I had a pretty serious pc crash where I had to get another one a little while back. I had to reach for a few of those discs for little things I still use...some photo's, documents and actually a few Dx plugs that still work believe it or not. I'm not sure what the problem could be other than maybe the media you used? I've always used Maxell and Memorex discs and have never had a problem. Even my old Kodak CDRW work perfectly and I've been told data saved on those can become corrupt over time. I wish I had some answers for you, but being quite a sentimental guy myself (and quite a pack rat with old CDR's etc) I have every data disc and DVD that I have ever burned. Now I did have a few problems when a drive was going bad on me to where I thought it was the disc, but a new drive always fixed the problem for me. Sorry you're having issues man...maybe someone else will chime in here that knows more about it.

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    fireberd
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    Re:labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels 2011/06/29 07:03:56 (permalink)
    First, paper labels are outdated.  Most audio CD players (and DVD players) and car in dash systems warn against using paper labels due to the fact they can flake off and cause failures.  I know for a fact that GM will not repair one under warranty if they find a paper label disc has been used.

    Back to the "old" discs.  There is a lot of info published that recorded discs are  not "permanent" and they can become unuseable.  I worked with a user on the Dell users forum that had some older CD's that he had burned and after "several" years he tried to use them and they would not play.   If you do a google search you will find a lot of info on this. 

    The comment about some not playing on certain audio CD players.  The burn speed has a lot to do with this, Audio CD's burned at speeds higher than 12X (I use 8X as my "standard") may not play on older audio CD players - either they will skip or not play at all.    Finally, depending on how the CD's were burned can determine what they will play on.  If they were burned with a "packet writing program" such as Roxio "Direct Disk" (now called Drag to Disc) or what Nero Calls "InCD" these types of discs have been known to lose format and/or data and should never really be used. 

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    krizrox
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    Re:labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels 2011/06/29 07:27:00 (permalink)
    yes the discs were tested on different drives and failed all of them. it's possible the blame is focused on the wrong thing. Perhaps the discs themselves are to blame as suggested. but why do they go bad over time? I've used a lot of different brands of discs ranging from the cheapest I could find to the best I could find. they all worked fine originally. this problem seemed to get worse over time. Some of the discs started going bad gradually, like they would play but eventually start to skip and/or jump or just stop cold in the drive. I had some home movies that were like that.

    I wrongly assumed CD-R/DVD-R technology was robust enough that these things would last a lifetime (or more) if cared for properly. I'm still suspicious of the paper labels but if what you're saying is true, then perhaps it's a combination of both. That's equally disturbing. I mean, if it's happening to me, it must be happening to other people too. Imagine all the data backups and whatever else in the world.

    I should mention something: I have years of audio data backups for my studio on CD-R and DVD-R discs dating back to 2004. So far they all seem fine. None of them have paper labels. I have been able to retrieve data from them without issue. In my universe, it's the labeled discs that are giving me problems. Anyway, I was just curious. Like I said, I'm not necessarily losing any sleep over this but it's worrisome and I think worth discussing for no other reason to shed some light on a definite problem.

    PS - thanks fireberd - i'll do a search and see what i find on the subject. generally speaking, i've been using taiyo yudens for years. i tend to buy the white unbranded types so i can easily scribble on them with a sharpie or whatever. i've never had an issue with them and clients seem to like them too. haven't heard of any "car" problems in years even burned at high speed. I haven't used paper labels in a long time.
    post edited by krizrox - 2011/06/29 07:30:51

    Larry Kriz
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    fireberd
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    Re:labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels 2011/06/29 08:38:24 (permalink)
    The older Memorex CD-R's were one of the "problematic" types that we saw on the Dell users forum.    CD-RW's are definitely out. 

    I used Verbatim ink jet printable discs for a long time, until Sam's Club quit selling them.  I've also used some ink jet printable Ritek without problems. I'm now using ink jet printable Taiyo Yuden.  I have a bank of 5 USB connected PATA CD/DVD burners that I use for Audio CD production (I can burn 5 at a time).  I use the PATA (IDE) drives as they will go down to 8X burn speed.  Every SATA drive I've checked will only go down to 16X.  I sell my own CD's at concerts and with my production have made many for others and they never have one come back as not playable, even on old/crappy audio CD players. I has an Epson ink jet printer that prints on CD/DVD's. 

    I suppose the paper labels (glue) could cause problems on certain CD-R's.  There was one "fix" I saw years ago about using a sharpie to darken the entire label side of a disc so it would play.   Anything is possible.


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    AT
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    Re:labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels 2011/06/29 10:10:15 (permalink)
    The cheaper brands of CDs can deteriorate after a few years. I imagine that is the problem, not the paper.

    What a video guy told me that paper on a DVD is a no no since they spin at higher rates.  The easiest solution is an ink jet printer and spend a few extra bucks on writeable CDs - they are more expensive anyway.

    My only problem is my kids stealing them for their stolen music - I guess I need to get some cheap ones and leave them on top.  cost me less and they lose their ill-gotten goods to boot.

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    krizrox
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    Re:labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels 2011/07/01 14:03:05 (permalink)
    Your comment about cheaper discs might have a lot of truth AT. I wasn't very picky back in the early days. Funny how life is ain't it? I have cassette tapes that have outlasted CD-R's by an order of magnitude. Vinyl records that have outlasted cassettes. I guess analog really is better from a long term storage viewpoint.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels 2011/07/01 14:56:33 (permalink)
    At a songwriters convention in LA, one of the speakers addressed this topic.

    Don't use the stick on labels,  was the advice he gave.

    1. They do not look professional.
    2. Depending on the label's paper, they can flake and cause dust inside the CD drive... not good.
    3. The labels (some kinds with metallic backing) can affect the reflective nature of the disk.
    4. The label glue can give out allowing the label to come off.
    5. The label can wrinkle up due to moisture/heat and that makes the disk unplayable.
    6. The label, if not installed properly and perfectly, can cause the disk to be out of balance.

    The other advice was to use the printable CD's, making sure they are AUDIO and not data disks. Data disks will play on some CD players (usually computer based) but may fail to play on the commercial players in many stereo systems.

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    Zuma
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    Re:labelling CDs & DVD's with paper labels 2011/07/07 18:37:42 (permalink)
    Watched a bit of a troubling segment on the History channel about CD's. It had to do with the formula manufacturers use for making CD's, nitrocellulose and acrylic. The nitrocellulose CD's commonly degraded under stress tests resulting in lost data vs. acrylic CD's which held up under the same tests. Problem is they are not required to disclose which formula is being used and even if they did, manufacturers can, and do, change the formula per economic reasons... and again, they are not required to tell you. So, there's no way to tell which formula you're getting and even if you did know, it could still change without you being made aware of it.

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    marquejohn
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    Paper Labels 2011/12/22 07:48:50 (permalink)
    I never experienced such a strange thing with Paper Labels on CD. Hopefully my Paper Labels might be of good quality or the player. Anyways even I'll try with other options and get back to you with good ideas. Thanks for sharing. For Paper labels http://www.gotoforms.com/

    Marquejohn
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    Bonzos Ghost
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    Re:Paper Labels 2011/12/28 14:26:57 (permalink)
    I've never had a problem with paper labelled CD's. They're fine using them in the "tray" style players. I would avoid using them in the "slot" style (car) just in case.

    I've only ever had one disc go blank on me over the years. It was a Memorex CDRW. (no label.) They definitely don't hold data for more than a few years. Never a problem with any CDR's though. Avoid no-name cheapo brands and use good quality discs.
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    fireberd
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    Re:Paper Labels 2011/12/28 14:48:11 (permalink)
    Music CD-R's are no different than "Data" CD-R's except the Music CD-R has a special track written on the disc to identify it as a Music CD-R.  The person that suggested only using Music CD-R's was wrong.  Music CD-R blanks are required in many standalone "music" CD burners.  The Music CD-R's were developed as a concession to the music industry and the extra cost per disc for Music CD-R's goes back to the music industry.  If you are burning audio CD's (and you must use CD-R's, not CD-RW's) on a PC you only need the "data" CD-R blanks.

    We have seen paper labels flake and come off in computer "tray" type CD/DVD drives on the Dell forum.  Usually when this happens the drive is toast and must be replaced.  Considering you can buy a computer CD/DVD burner for $20 from www.newegg.com if one has problems because of paper label flaking off, that is the easy way out for a computer disc drive.

    Most of the burned Audio CD's that I've seen that won't play or skip in an audio CD player is because it was burned at a high speed.  The newer audio CD players that are also MP3 compatible do not have the burn speed problem, but most older CD players (and older car in-dash players) will balk at higher burned speeds.  My audio CD burn speed "standard" is 8X. The 8X speed is available on most PATA (IDE) interface type burners but unfortunately the newer SATA interface types will only go down to 16X and that can be a problem with some old audio CD players.  I have a 10 year old JVC 5 disc CD player in my home stereo rack and it doesn't like CD's burned over 12X. 
    post edited by fireberd - 2011/12/28 14:49:40

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    Re:Paper Labels 2011/12/28 18:15:48 (permalink)
    Data can be easily lost on CD-R and DVD-R media. Leave one in the car on a hot day if you want to see how quickly it can happen. Who knows how many millions of terabytes of data backups are going to be lost in the next 20-50 years? Soon the majority of human knowledge will exist only on temporary media, an idea to ponder if you're a futurist or science fiction writer.

    You may find that some of the disks can be read as data even if they can't be played as music CDs. Software that reads data doesn't give up as quickly as music playback software. Your CD/DVD backup software may offer an option to specify how many retries are allowed before giving up, as well as the option to skip unreadable sectors. I have successfully recovered DVDs this way that would not play in any player. Not always with zero data loss, unfortunately.

    There are also services that specialize in data recovery, but expect to pay hundreds for each disk salvaged.


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    elsongs
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    Re:Paper Labels 2011/12/28 19:39:43 (permalink)
    I've never had a problem with paper labels. Still use them (unless I take a sharpie to one as a quickie labeling job). Even if they peel off, they still play. It's definitely the quality of the disc. I once bought a 50-pack of cheap GQ "Great Quality" brand CD-Rs. Ironically, they go "scratchy" (in terms of playability, not necessarily physical scratches on the disc) and eventually go unplayable -- in a matter of *WEEKS*.

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    Re:Paper Labels 2014/05/27 13:07:55 (permalink)
    I do not use paper for printing labels.
    My printer has a print function directly on disks. For this I use a simple
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    strikinglyhandsome1
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    Re:Paper Labels 2014/05/27 13:11:06 (permalink)
    Simon?
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    fireberd
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    Re:Paper Labels 2014/05/27 15:35:44 (permalink)
    I have used an Epson to print directly on CD's and DVD's for about 6 or 7 years.  Paper labels are passé and they can flake off inside the player.  Most (all that I've seen) auto manufacturers will not honor an in dash CD player warranty if it is found a paper label disc was used and flaked off and caused the problem.  My DVD and Blu-Ray players both state do not use paper label discs. 
     
    As I do a lot of CD production and printing, I recently bought a Primera Bravo SE  disc printer. I've had it less than a month and have printed over 200 discs (I only use Taiyo Yuden).  With the amount of disc production I do the Epson's seem to last about 2 years and then start having problems.  I hope the Primera lasts longer.

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