• Techniques
  • Music Production Sounds too Old? (p.4)
2009/12/10 20:09:38
munmun
SongCraft


Gid'day,

As the year comes to a close I have re-accessed my work, having contacts in the music biz and received feedback (catchy, melodic but a little old hat) and having posted my work on the CW Song forum for feedback I feel that most of the songs and instrumentals posted there are superb but 'old-hat' and also not to forget those great 'old' cover songs.  (no offense intended), I do love all those old classics.

I guess most of the works posted in the CW Song-Forum are mostly from older age groups? (40+),  I'm also 40+, but I don't want my songs to be labelled 'old-hat' don't get me wrong I love all the old stuff...Classic Orchestrations, Blues, Jazz, BBKing, Beatles, Eric Clapton, Rolling Stones, Led Zep, Jeff Beck, Pink Floyd, Metallica, (too many more bands to list), right up to current new bands!  Everything from Jazz, Rock, Pop Rock, Heavy Metal to Prog'House, Hip Hop, IDM and everything inbetween.

*  I don't want my music to be labelled as 'Old Hat'.   Yeah although I prefer to tweak my own sounds my music productions are sounding a little too cookie cutter, old-hat and needs to sound modern, I want to produce more modern cutting edge productions. That's what this discussion is all about!!!  (NOTE: I am not talking about mixing, audio processing techniques).

I have done a lot of reading up (manuals, reviews) on the latest plugins, listened to lots of demo's particularly (1)..Spectrasonics Omnisphere, (2)..Heavyocity Evolve, (3)..Sample Logic Synergy, (4)..NI Absynth, (5)..Rob Papen's Blue.  I'm interested in modern, otherworldly sounds.  I think these plugins can be useful for cutting edge 'song' production which is my main goal, but of course they're ideal for filmscore work (particularly Evolve and Synergy) but I think those two plugins can be useful in some way for song production?. I just need to think 'Otherworldly' LOL!!

I've been experimenting with what I have, Ultra-Analog synth, SonikSynth and Cakewalk's classic's (various softsynths).  Most of those sounds are OK but a little old and static compared to a lot of the newer plugins such as Omniphere and Synergy. 

I've used CC# to add automated changes to the tonal characterics to produce 'evolving/motion pads'.   Also experimented with 'layering textures', synth pads, voices/choir, strings/brass ens, then adding lot of effects such as stereo delay which certainly helps add a more modern sound.  Also been experimenting with 'arpeggios' to add motion/rhythm to my soundscapes.

Arpeggios? since I have pretty good piano skills I found it better to create my own in the PRV because to me the PRV is the ultimate-unlimited workspace for a more flexible creation of arpeggios. OK! So now I have pads that evolve (CC#, Layers and Velocity), and I have modern sounding motion/rhythm (Arpeggios).

WHOA!! Having to do all that is a lot of extra work!! Maybe if I had something like Synergy I could get all that happening quicker?.  I guess music production is a labour of love.  It's not only about what you have it's how you use it.  There are various workflow methods to achieve good end results, the goal being 'Modern, Cutting Edge Music Productions'.  And afterall that effort the 'Song' still remains to be the most important factor,,, good lyrics and performances, strong melodies, hooks and good arrangements.




Would you mind telling us which song from Soundclick they listened to.  Would like to A/B with my stuff.
2009/12/10 20:38:52
SongCraft
Munmun: Would you mind telling us which song from Soundclick they listened to.  Would like to A/B with my stuff.

Generally all my songs on Soundclick more or less but generally yes.
2009/12/11 05:34:34
spacey
SongCraft I'm curious about "modern" as in "not old hat" and as somebody that really doesn't think about such things when writing, I don't know much about it. Probably due to I'm not trying to sell music.

My curiousity brings me to the questions:
Can examples of "old hat" and "modern" songs be given for different genres? Who's who in:
Rock, Country, Jazz..etc.

I just feel musical examples would help me understand more about this concept.
2009/12/11 08:37:54
The Maillard Reaction
:-)

I can't escape the irony that a few months ago I listened to your (Spacey's) tunes for the first time... I thought wow, old fashioned, straight up, heart felt, well seasoned, mark of a craftsman, simply beautiful... MUSIC!!!!

I mean it... that's what I thought... all at once in an instant.

To bad no one is gonna buy it from you too sell candy bars or acme creme on TV... it's too old fashioned.  :-(

The Rolling Stones pretty much have the boomer (viagra and AARP) market covered... that's why so many media workers are focused on the *emerging* customer... the teenager with a indiscreet disposable income represents new opportunities.

all the best,
mike



2009/12/11 08:58:40
Guitarhacker
I hope that boat ain't leaking.......

But yeah... you might be right about the 25 yr old thing. One guy came to our lunch table.... I don't remember his name....... he wasn't 25... more like mid to upper 30's or so...... and I remember thinking... just listening to him talk... "what an a$$" .....  we were discussing music and what sells and what doesn't... and the money flow in the biz. I mentioned or asked about Contemporary Christian music (CCM) and his comment was  don't get involved in CCM..... there's no money there..... I asked him specifics..... and his comment was " I couldn't pay my $11,000 a month house payment on CCM"......everything he said was about him.....

 but there's others out there...... not like him I'm sure... and plenty that are......
2009/12/11 10:46:12
spacey
Thanks Mike! lol glad I'm not trying to feed a family. I have just been paid...as it was created with hopes that it would be pleasing music. (although donations can be sent-PM for details lol)

I just feel if nobody can supply audio examples with detail info defining these "classification" that there is nothing to be gained here. Just opinions, and I do believe there is more to it than that.
2009/12/11 11:35:36
j boy
Guitarhacker


 and his comment was " I couldn't pay my $11,000 a month house payment on CCM"......

This comment alone should have tipped you that he was spouting pure BS.
2009/12/11 11:56:30
Lemonboy

I don't want my music to be labelled as 'Old Hat'.   Yeah although I prefer to tweak my own sounds my music productions are sounding a little too cookie cutter, old-hat and needs to sound modern, I want to produce more modern cutting edge productions. That's what this discussion is all about!!!  (NOTE: I am not talking about mixing, audio processing techniques).


Hi Songcraft

You are obviously talented as songwriter, but after a quick listen to your songs, the thing that made them very 70’s for me was the drumming.  IMO it is what I would describe as background drumming - its just there holding the beat without adding much extra. 

I think modern production affords the drums a far more important role.  Not necessarily more in your face sonically, but more opportunity to be interesting or off the wall.  In fact IMO the groups from the 60’s & 70’s that still hold their own today benefit from drummers who added interest (not just rhythm) to the songs.  Take Break On Through by The Doors as an example, the drumming is so musical!

Why not spend an afternoon trying out some drum loops with your songs and see where that takes them!

2009/12/11 13:50:22
jimmyman

 It may not be a matter of "old school". It may be more a matter
of "how" and or "how well" it's done. Using comparisons in
 time, gender. genre, style, and so many other descriptive
words can sometimes lead to nowhere when "looking at self"

 I can relate to how you feel about your own stuff. I went
and listened to parts of a couple of your songs. Comparing
you to other songs forum tunes you have a much more
"you" style. It's one that isn't like so many others.

  The sounds I heard were a bit thin and low quality in tone.
That in itself can "date" a song. granted I only listened to
a small amount of your stuff but it was like seeing how a
sound bite hit me.

  Thick, lush sounds seem to most often get more attention
and better appeal to a listener. That can be very hard to do
and may be why on average the songs forum has fewer
of these type sounds on songs.

  This is not to be mistaken for smooth warm sounds.
A mix can sound smooth and warm and yet lack "sparkle".
Oh course a great song is a great song but so is a
performance/mix/production.

  If the recording and or playback doesn't capture or
demonstrate the full potential in quality then a song
may be called dated because of "tone". I've wrote
maybe over 300 songs in my time. I can look at
them now and say that they were not very good.
Some were very good but most were real bad.

  I could call that dated but I wonder is it just
not well written stuff in the first place? Lyrics
play a large roll too I guess. Then there are
songs that are surely dated but It may be
the original that is dated. What if tayler swift
did the beatles "blackbird?"

  Years ago a country artist had a hit on an old
janis joplin song. So the word dated can be
extremely vague or even non usable as a term
sometimes. Some of Bonnie raitts songs could
be played today and easily sound up with the
times as well as other artist.

 Yet at the same time many of todays tunes
that are hits could easily be dated songs
because it's the same old stuff. There are
good and bad songs today but mostly
the recordings are all good quality in
pop and country.

  The fact that the Op wants a more modern
sound than he is getting may hold the key to
getting there because desire comes first.
It may be hard and difficult to do so but with
enough passion some good things may happen.

   Dated may be a term used when someone
completes a tune and does nothing more to it.
If it (then or now) sounds dated to the writer
it may be a question of leave it or do something.

 A total new remix can sometimes do wonders.
If a great new remix done in a pro manner
does not greatly affect the songs persona
then maybe the song is weak but giving up
before knowing if a new mix or production etc
is done will leave one never knowing.

  Some people in the songs forum do a tune
and say it's done. Some do some tweaking.
It's up to the writer to decide if it's good
enough. Sometimes it may be a waste to
go further. Sometimes one may quit
tweaking.  or re recording, or remixing
before the songs reaches it's best outcome.

  By coincidence I woke up this morning thinking
of this very subject. I'm re doing a lot of stuff
written and recorded years ago and when
those are completed I hope that I can do
some new stuff that could fit the modern
concept. Or to put it in another way in a
different style.

  



   
2009/12/11 14:31:14
Bristol_Jonesey
Some great points there Jimmy.

I'm revisiting some of our old stuff which is hopefully benefiting from some of the tips & techniques I pick up from here mainly, but other sites as well.

My biggest critic- the wife - reckons she can hear massive improvements in our productions, so I must be doing something right.


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