• Coffee House
  • Continued: Glyn Johns Drum Set up with added close tom mics and Out Kick
2013/05/03 14:21:13
Mooch4056

Continued 
I don't have time today to record a sample of how this sounds but I did have time to set up the mics 

This is leaving my Glyn Johns Mic set up the same but adding close tom mics to toms 1 2 3 .. .. and adding an outside mic to the kick 


My Question before I record tomorrow with this set up 


How would you change current Mic placements if at all?


Track 1 Kick Out (Edge Kick drum mic)
Track 2 Kick In (Cad Pro7 Kick)
Track 3 - Snare (Cad pro 7 Snare)
Track 4 (Overhead above snare 40 inches Glyn Johns) MXL 990 Mic
Track 5 (40 inches to the right of snare above the floor tom Glyn Johns) MXL V67 Mic
Track 6 Tom 1 Cad pro 7 tom mic 
Track 7 Tom 2 Cad Pro 7 Mic
Track 8 Tom 3 Cad Pro 7 Mic 


































2013/05/03 14:23:08
craigb
Don't know about anyone else, but I can see your problem clearly!

(Those drums aren't going to play themselves now are they? )
2013/05/03 14:27:34
Starise
 Very nice Mooch. And it looks as if you can record drums the same way the Foo Fighters made their  last album.
2013/05/03 14:27:36
Mooch4056
craigb


Don't know about anyone else, but I can see your problem clearly!

(Those drums aren't going to play themselves now are they? )

Funny Guy 
2013/05/03 15:56:44
alexoosthoek
With adding all this "extra" mic's you sort of miss the Glyn Johns method. Time to record and listen to it I guess : )
2013/05/03 18:56:23
Danny Danzi
I'm with Alex...however, the things you added were things I felt were missing in your sound when you were straight GJ method.

Also, I'm not crazy about that V67, Paul. The reason being...it's sort of in the line of fire. Those big mic's look like they can take a beating until you whack one dead on with a stick.

Not only that but...for me, techniques 101 rule 1...never do something that inconveniences a player or makes them play differently than they would normally. As soon as you make someone uncomfortable or to the point of them having to be careful about how they play, you have altered their playing style. This could also make them a bit too aware of going near that floor tom which *could* change the impact or execution when goin in that area. 

But, see how it sounds and go from there. Again, just hearing the drums without music won't tell much of a story. It will sound like a drum kit no matter what. We have to see if it sounds like a quality drum kit/print/mic config within a song. It's good you took pictures of this and logged the information for your records.

At the end of the day Paul, what kind of drum sound are you looking for? Whatever names of bands you can come up with, that's where you need to research as far as how they may have went about their drum technique. In my business, a tight kit along the "today" options of sound will work with just about any style of music. The more room oriented drum sounds only work for select things really...so in my personal opinion, I'd try to go for as much of a "now sound" as I can because it just works with just about everything today.

For example, kicks with a nice thud as well as beater attack with a little room in them with a light gate at the end. Not like a gated kick drum....but the gate controls how the decay of the room in the kick reacts.

Snares that don't sound like you're punching a cardboard box. A nice crack with a little ring and come to life when you rim shot them.

Toms that have a nice attack, a little ring and do NOT have that mid-range, roomy/cheap sound to them.

Crashes, rides and hats will always be subjective. Sometimes darker works, sometimes brighter works. The quality of the cymbals is important but as I said before in another message, sometimes lower line cymbals wind up sounding good once you throw a mic on them and hear them in the mix.

All mic's should be nice and close like you have them. Watch the super room mic's as well as mic's that are super sensitive when used as room mics. The more sensitive the mic is...the more room "goodness" you can sometimes get. My point in saying that is...sometimes more of a low-fi room with lesser quality mic's is the answer.

Some reading this may ask "what are you smoking Danny?!" The method to the madness is...we totally alter room mics when we process them. 8 out of 10 times you're going to totally annihilate OH's with compression, eq and whatever else you feel like throwing on them. As soon as you do that, you've done what? Right...you've sort of degraded the print from the original.

Distance room mic's....be careful of these too. Though they can sound awesome, in a mix they can make your drums harder to hear....or even too big to where the other instruments don't sound like they belong. Meaning, it's a catch 22....it can be too roomy and be like using too much reverb, or blow everything else away due to the size of the sound. Hope this helps. :)

-Danny
2013/05/03 19:22:02
Jeff Evans
I bet the room in this case (garage) does not sound too good and the room mics will probably not sound great at all. To me the biggest problem in those pictures is where the drums are set up. The close mics should be OK but I still don't like the location. The door behind the kit is just a large reflective hard surface close to the drums. I can understand why the drum sound has not been great so far.

My drums are set up in a complete enclosure with one of the walls padded with a doona and a roof to stop reflections from the ceiling bouncing back down. Totally different setup to this and it just sounds amazing.
2013/05/03 19:39:55
Mooch4056
Jeff Evans


I bet the room in this case (garage) does not sound too good and the room mics will probably not sound great at all. To me the biggest problem in those pictures is where the drums are set up. The close mics should be OK but I still don't like the location. The door behind the kit is just a large reflective hard surface close to the drums. I can understand why the drum sound has not been great so far.

My drums are set up in a complete enclosure with one of the walls padded with a doona and a roof to stop reflections from the ceiling bouncing back down. Totally different setup to this and it just sounds amazing.

Here is what the room mics sound like ... It's just the two room mics you speak of and a snare and kick drum mic ... Via glyn johns method .. Same kit same mics you speak of ... Same position they are in the pictures .. Same garage ... Just no closed toms  https://soundcloud.com/mooch4056/glyn-john-test
2013/05/03 19:48:01
Mooch4056
Danny Danzi


I'm with Alex...however, the things you added were things I felt were missing in your sound when you were straight GJ method.

Also, I'm not crazy about that V67, Paul. The reason being...it's sort of in the line of fire. Those big mic's look like they can take a beating until you whack one dead on with a stick.

Not only that but...for me, techniques 101 rule 1...never do something that inconveniences a player or makes them play differently than they would normally. As soon as you make someone uncomfortable or to the point of them having to be careful about how they play, you have altered their playing style. This could also make them a bit too aware of going near that floor tom which *could* change the impact or execution when goin in that area. 

But, see how it sounds and go from there. Again, just hearing the drums without music won't tell much of a story. It will sound like a drum kit no matter what. We have to see if it sounds like a quality drum kit/print/mic config within a song. It's good you took pictures of this and logged the information for your records.

At the end of the day Paul, what kind of drum sound are you looking for? Whatever names of bands you can come up with, that's where you need to research as far as how they may have went about their drum technique. In my business, a tight kit along the "today" options of sound will work with just about any style of music. The more room oriented drum sounds only work for select things really...so in my personal opinion, I'd try to go for as much of a "now sound" as I can because it just works with just about everything today.

For example, kicks with a nice thud as well as beater attack with a little room in them with a light gate at the end. Not like a gated kick drum....but the gate controls how the decay of the room in the kick reacts.

Snares that don't sound like you're punching a cardboard box. A nice crack with a little ring and come to life when you rim shot them.

Toms that have a nice attack, a little ring and do NOT have that mid-range, roomy/cheap sound to them.

Crashes, rides and hats will always be subjective. Sometimes darker works, sometimes brighter works. The quality of the cymbals is important but as I said before in another message, sometimes lower line cymbals wind up sounding good once you throw a mic on them and hear them in the mix.

All mic's should be nice and close like you have them. Watch the super room mic's as well as mic's that are super sensitive when used as room mics. The more sensitive the mic is...the more room "goodness" you can sometimes get. My point in saying that is...sometimes more of a low-fi room with lesser quality mic's is the answer.

Some reading this may ask "what are you smoking Danny?!" The method to the madness is...we totally alter room mics when we process them. 8 out of 10 times you're going to totally annihilate OH's with compression, eq and whatever else you feel like throwing on them. As soon as you do that, you've done what? Right...you've sort of degraded the print from the original.

Distance room mic's....be careful of these too. Though they can sound awesome, in a mix they can make your drums harder to hear....or even too big to where the other instruments don't sound like they belong. Meaning, it's a catch 22....it can be too roomy and be like using too much reverb, or blow everything else away due to the size of the sound. Hope this helps. :)

-Danny
Danny .. The v 67 is not in the way of how I play ... And I am the one playing them for now... Might change when Bob adjusts this it to his body feel ....plus I have an 8 inch Tom to add when I buy anther arm for a cymbal stand 

And after reading you're and jonbouy s comments I figured ....well you both agree to add mics to an all ready fair mix and see what happens ... 




like you said ... Here we go ....gotta record to find out ... Unfortunately no time today to record .. I was barley home long enough to throw the new mics on .... I am still not at home ...


I am at a rehearsal ... That's what musicians do ... We rehearse and stuff right ? ;) 





I'll record tomorrow ... If you promise to critic the sound and not my drum playing ill be happy ..... ;) 

2013/05/03 20:17:20
Danny Danzi
No worries Paul, I'd never critique someone's playing unless they asked or did something so blatantly bad, it ruined the piece! LOL! :-Þ

-Danny
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