Danny and Bit (Dave) are two of the guy I respect the most, and I generally agree with them. Personally, I record close mic'd too, but it's really a function of the genres/material more than anything. The sound you shared would be great for the right type of music. The way to think about it is imaging the Ringo sound sitting in a Metallica song-- probably wouldn't carry the weight it needs for the music. On the contrary, imaging Lars pounding in a Beatles song-- probably wouldn't have sold all those records. So IMHO, there's a time and a place for all types of sounds. 

One thing about micing drums is that, although you may be able to successfully capture a kit with this method or just room/overheads, you wouldn't be able to add to it. If you throw close mics on, you could alway pull them out if it was the thing to do.

Back to my voyeuristic mode. Good luck.

alexoosthoek


Don't swap right away Paul, try to get the acoustic to sound the way you want it first :)

+1
 
Thing is if you are using Glyn Johns or a stereo OH configuration get the kit sounding nice and balanced in that main pair before you do anything else!  If you can't get the space sounding too great then make sure you are using cardoid pattern mics and move in closer if need be but keep that all-round balance right.
 
Don't add further mics until you can get it right at that stage, then your close mics are giving you further options, if you haven't got that basic sound right in the first place close mics are just adding confusion and you wont get repeatable results.
 
This sounds much better than anything that I've heard off that kit so far, so you are on the right lines.  I'd say you've got far too much hat in relation to everything else so some movement of the snare mic further from the hat or work a bit more on the balance from the main overheads.  Do you see the point I'm making from that?  I can't tell whether the hi-hat overdose is coming from the OH's or the close mic on the snare already.
 
Keep trying with that OH pair placement until everything sounds balanced and nothing is too dominant.  Close micing is a cinch from that point onwards.
 
There's some not nice resonance going on there too I'm not sure if it's the kick itself causing it or whether it's causing some sympathetic resonance off the other drums, whatever it's something to listen for when you are tuning up, sometimes nastiness can't be avoided and you have to get a little judicious in the use of some gaffer tape, not for all out damping but just to kill of a little of the tonal resonances that might clash with the music.
 
But yes just like you have observed this IS actually getting somewhere.

I like the Glynn Johns sound.

I like Mooches drum sound.

I could use it in a mix.

I'm afraid of being called a dinosaur.






I pointed my snare mic at the shell yesterday because it sounded crisp... after 15 minutes I thought "it doesn't sound as full and woody" as it did in the other position.

I no longer expect to be satisfied. :-)

Jonbouy

alexoosthoek


Don't swap right away Paul, try to get the acoustic to sound the way you want it first :)

+1
 
Thing is if you are using Glyn Johns or a stereo OH configuration get the kit sounding nice and balanced in that main pair before you do anything else!  If you can't get the space sounding too great then make sure you are using cardoid pattern mics and move in closer if need be but keep that all-round balance right.
 
Don't add further mics until you can get it right at that stage, then your close mics are giving you further options, if you haven't got that basic sound right in the first place close mics are just adding confusion and you wont get repeatable results.
 
This sounds much better than anything that I've heard off that kit so far, so you are on the right lines.  I'd say you've got far too much hat in relation to everything else so some movement of the snare mic further from the hat or work a bit more on the balance from the main overheads.  Do you see the point I'm making from that?  I can't tell whether the hi-hat overdose is coming from the OH's or the close mic on the snare already.
 
Keep trying with that OH pair placement until everything sounds balanced and nothing is too dominant.  Close micing is a cinch from that point onwards.
 
There's some not nice resonance going on there too I'm not sure if it's the kick itself causing it or whether it's causing some sympathetic resonance off the other drums, whatever it's something to listen for when you are tuning up, sometimes nastiness can't be avoided and you have to get a little judicious in the use of some gaffer tape, not for all out damping but just to kill of a little of the tonal resonances that might clash with the music.
 
But yes just like you have observed this IS actually getting somewhere.

+1 to the above. I just want to add one more thing to this, Paul. Everything Jon is telling you here sounds perfect to me. Even down to the artifacts he's mentioning. However, you don't really know for sure until you mix this kit in with a song.
 
One of the main things in recording that I have learned is, nothing is as it seems when solo'd up. You can have the greatest sound known to man. That doesn't promise you it will work good in a mix with other instruments. Sometimes instruments actually sound sort of bad when by themselves but low and behold, something magical happens when you mix the stuff together.
 
I can give several instances of this. One being Bohemian Rhapsody. Forgive me for not bowing down to that piece of history other than when the hair on my arms stands up when I solo Freddie's tracks. These instruments by themselves do not sound very good at all. As a matter of fact, I would be ashamed of myself for pumping out sounds like this. May's guitar intonation is either off or there was some bad fretting going on...the drums didn't impress me, the bass was so so.....HOWEVER...... 
 
Put that stuff in a mix, tighten up the eq and get the right recipe and it's easy to see/hear how it made history. My point isn't to bash on the performances or the actual prints. My point is, "nothing is as it seems" until you mix it in with other instruments.
 
So though Jon, me or anyone else can tell you what we may change in this kit while hearing it solo'd up, if you mix it with a song and adjust the kit to fit the mix, we may not comment in the same way. From here, that's what you should do next man. Record the kit using your present techniques into a song. Do something short about 30 seconds to a minute and let's hear how these get along with others. :)
 
-Danny

Do something short about 30 seconds to a minute and let's hear how these get along with others. :)
 
-Danny

I will record something fun ... For the sake of fun..... And then you'll hear it with music too. 


I'll do one as it is set up now... And one as it is now.....but with close mics on the toms ...




So I'll record it with two different mic set ups ....


Aight? 


Oh Kay!




:) 

Hahaha yeah, that sounds like a plan Paul. At least we'll be able to see what these bad boys can do. :) Try to mix the drums in as good as you can when you do the actual mix...this way you really hear if things work. :) Looking forward to hearing this.

-Danny

Good job. IMO there is always room for improvement, but for the first time trying a new micing technique I'm impressed.

Thanks IK

I often time see people say things like "I can't tell if I like it until I hear it in a mix", and that seems very reasonable.


But, consider another perspective. Let's say I have a bass in my hands and you are playing drums and we have a rough mix in the head phones.

Something about that drum playing has to appeal to me to get my bass juices flowing.

So, right here at the moment of inception, I have to either hear "it" and play along so as to make a "mix", or I can stall out and wait for nothing to happen.

My point is, drums are usually the back bone of a song... you can't "wait to hear it in the mix" before you decide it sounds groovy. You are well served to listen to the drums and play something that sounds real good with them.

That is one of the mysteries of drum tuning. Many people deny there is any chromatic information in a trap kit... but we have all experienced hearing a bass player lock onto a drum groove and instinctively hit the notes and song key that really gels with the drum kit's tonality. That happens in jam bands all the time.

The sound of the drums inspire certain chromatic ideas and discourages others.

You can't just wait to hear it in the final mix.

Well, you can.



The quotes used above are universal... I'm not calling anyone out. 

These are just some random thoughts of mine.

What this means is that Paul's drumming might be ready for a mix... but we just don't know what the song is yet.

If you start with some other instrument then you might have to fit the drums onto it. That can be difficult.

There's no better or worse way I suppose, but I do find that I like songs that evolved from a strong relationship between the bass and drums so that work flow is probably a good one.

 


best regards,
mike

Mike, as you know a recorded production is often a totally different thing to a live capture and it will usually require a different approach.
 
Of course there is a lot of chromatic stuff going in with a drum kit you only have to notice different drums will have more sympathetic resonance when different notes are played by other instruments.  I have always endeavoured to aim for tonal neutrality as much as I can in trying get an overall 'sound' though in order not to step on something elses harmonic content as it normally (again not always) sounds bad.  Having said that I will always aim for the overall kit to resonate as a nice balanced 'whole' with itself.
 
The mixing aspect I agree with Danny on, I've arrived at some fantastic kit sounds only to find they don't work in the context of a particular recording, and yes drums traditionally have often been recorded first but if a drummer has plenty of studio experience he/she will have of course by a process of iterative experience gained some idea of what is likely to work and what won't.
 
Simply put the more often you do it the better you get....hopefully.