From Facebook drum lesson gir..... Gina Knight.... Drummer from Chicago 




 I forgot where I read this, but I thought it was an interesting concept. By the way -- the word "decay" is often used to describe how quickly the sustain of the cymbal 'dies off.' Okay...here is goes...
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"You want to know one secret to the huge drum sound of Led Zeppelin's drummer, John Bonham? Finesse. He understood that the drums sound louder and bigger in a mix if the cymbals are quieter in comparison. So he played his cymbals softly and hit the drums pretty hard. This allowed the engineer to raise up the levels of the drums without having the cymbals drown everything else out. Absolutely brilliant.





Your thoughts ....






Thanks Mooch 

Hit the drums "pretty hard?"  More like beat the living FSF out of 'em!

Interesting contrast comment about the cymbals though.

I have been playing like that for over 40 years. It is one of the biggest problems that most drummers have. There are many surfaces on a drum kit and they all produce large varying amounts of level if struck with the same amount of force. Cymbals will be heard even with gentle playing. They just cut through. Toms need to be hit harder too in comparison to the snare as well.

It takes skill to control the amount of power you are delivering in a stroke with the same hand one minute softer on a ride cymbal and then harder on a tom.

Another skill that few drummers possess is the ability to play all the drums quietly. They sound quite different down low too and produce quite a sound when recorded softly. You do not have to beat the life out of them at all. Depends on the drums too. Sonor drums sound fantastic at all levels of playing. Most other kits do not. The drums themselves make a big difference.

A big problem that drummers have is they don't know how to balance themselves with the rest of the band. They are simply not listening! Drummers can easily be the loudest person on the stage (along with guitarists that is!) Being a recording engineer as well as a drummer I have always approached playing live with the concept of balancing myself so I can hear everyone else in the band. As a result I got tons of work over 40 years of playing. 

You do not have to play loud in order to create tension, excitement and energy. You can do that at all volume levels. Listen to some of the finest Jazz players and you will appreciate what I mean.

But thanks Mooch it was fun to watch John playing some great music and solos on YouTube. Reminded me of the old days. (40 years ago!)

I have played with a few drummers who knew only "Louder and Loudest". 

One time, we had a new decibel meter on stage. 119db with the band playing  and 121db in a drum solo. 

three piece band and yeah, we knew we were loud. 

On another occasion, while auditioning drummers for an opening in the band on a later band..... a guy came in with a Kick drum, snare, high hat, one cymbal, and 2 toms.   We were quite taken back at the simplicity of the kit, because several other drummers came with kits that were rivaling Neil Pert's kit. Half the room was drum kit. This guy was different right from the start. 

His playing style was as different as the kit he played. He didn't smash the drums and the cymbals but actually played them. Much lower volume and his groove was so firm and spot on. It made the whole band sound tighter and better. The bass player loved him from song 1.  

He declined the gig due to his daytime gig. He was a UPS driver and made great pay and had to work long hours. We were pretty much a traveling band and played out of town sometimes a fair distance and he would be late to the gigs as a result. 

Oh well..... but it does show there are drummers out there that "get it" musically. 


 

As a drummer, threads like this are pure wisdom. Thanks.

I dunno Mooch...being a drummer myself, though finesse is super important on all instruments, this doesn't add to what makes a drum sound big.

If we're going to look at "big" there are lots of things to keep in mind.

1. Room and how you use the room: This is the most important as far as how big your kit is going to be.

2. Mics and how the kit is mic'd: Equally as important as #1 because if we close mic in a big room (close mic meaning as close to the heads as possible) the sound size decreases. Lower OH's instead of higher ones...no distant OH's at the back of the room...all this stuff plays a role in how big a kit will sound.

If we don't close mic "so close" and we raise the OH's a bit higher and then add in some distance mics, now we're bringing the room into the scheme of things.

3. Tuning and what heads are used as well as bottom heads: Quite a few people forget about this and it's a shame because it's so easy to do, it can totally change your sound for the better. Some people pull off the bottom heads....these days, leaving them on and tuning them correctly is the better choice. The reason being, if you have both the top and bottom heads on toms working together, you get more sustain. Add that into a big room or a kit that is mic'd for "big" and you just changed not only the sound, but the game.

Tuning is so important because you can literally accentuate a room based on how the drum tuning reacts within that room. A great kit tuned poorly can sound terrible in the best room. The more sustain/resonance you have on the kit, the more sound it's going to throw around the room.

Head selection is also important. Those Black Dots most of us used years ago aren't really a good choice today. They rob the drum of tone in my opinion. We're better off with good old regular REMO's, Pin Stripes or even Evans Hydrolics etc. This to me is what makes a drum kit big. Not the finesse of the player. Of course you want to smash cymbals with the right amount of conviction without making them sound obnoxious, but it's pretty common knowledge that most drummers (at least in rock situations like Zep) should be smashing a kick, snare and toms at all times unless the dynamics of the song do not call for that.

There is nothing worse being an engineer, than to have to change out a drummers hits because he hit them like a sissy. A rock drum needs either a nice smash at the center or a rim shot center hit at the same time. Anything else is just lame for this style of music. But take Bonzo out of the room he was recorded in, take the resonance off his drums (listen closely to out takes of his kit...they really resonate to the point of not sounding too good by themselves at times, but boy do they fit in the mix) and the big sound goes away no matter how hard he hits them.

So though I do feel finesse is important, to me it has nothing to do with how big or small a sound source is.

-Danny

I've never liked the black dot heads myself, far prefer the ambassador coated heads or the Remo pin stripe heads. Good point about the room as well, everything acoustic has a very personal relationship with the environment around it.

Danny Danzi

There is nothing worse being an engineer, than to have to change out a drummers hits because he hit them like a sissy

-Danny

That's funny.  LOL


I agree with what your saying about all those things that could make the drums sound big or small. 

I purchased a Mapex birch 7 piece drum set last summer. Got a 24 Channel snake going from the garage to my music room..... And man .... I have been playing around with mics and placement and no matter what it sounds like a Mapex intermediate kit miked up in a garage. I do different things and each time I try it is different .... But not the sound I am after..... Heck I am not even sure what sound I am after I am just trying to find something that sounds good. 

I thought the quote from drum lesson girl Gina Knight was interesting ... If nothing else 

So anyway ...

I don't know a lot about Bonham but I thought I read somewhere that he preferred to be recorded in big open concrete rooms .... Voila! Thre is his big drum sound. I don't know that for sure. Just something that got put in my head somewhere along my 42 years of existence so far 

I've heard stupid people say that he used such a big bass drum live becuase it gave them low end since they didn't have a bass player ..... I just thought .... DO they know who was John Paul Jones? 


Hahahahahaha 

Mooch4056


I purchased a Mapex birch 7 piece drum set last summer. Got a 24 Channel snake going from the garage to my music room..... And ...it sounds like a Mapex intermediate kit miked up in a garage.  

Just tell people that "realism" is very important to you.

I'd love to have a 7 piece kit of any type....all I've got here is an electronic thing....