trimph1


I'd love to have a 7 piece kit of any type....all I've got here is an electronic thing....

I have v drums ... Hooked up through sonarx2 with superior drummer ... Sounds way better than the 7 piece real kit .... 


I'll figure it out and get the mapex sounding good ... I'll buy new heads and tune the crap out of them ... Maybe try a drum shield ... Then do a rain dance for giggles 

Ah drums......

I have to go with Danny on this. Tuning is so important, not that difficult, yet challenging. Head selection is actually paramount. Head selection for genre is hugely important. Single ply heads like Ambassadors sound totally different than Pin-stripes and coated Ambassadors. This is even more noticeable when mixing. Trying to get "that" sound you are looking for matters so much on how you tune and what heads you select.

Then, I have to go with Jeff too on finesse. It's so dependent on the song, the style of music, etc. A tom hit hard and correctly in the sweet spot makes such a great sound, but it might not sound good in an open jazz setting (especially with a pin-stripe). But, softly hit pin stripes don't sound that good either. Pin-stripes produce so much more attack that is great for rock and metal, but it's over-bearing for other genres. Coated Ambassadors and fibre skins are much more sensitive to finesse and can sound good or even great being hit with different and lighter forces.

I've been experimenting with this for years as a personal quest. I've also discovered a significant difference in beater selection for the kick. I personally use wood for metal and felt for mellower, rounder tones. To my ears, it makes quite a difference.

So, I think you're all correct, but it really depends on the song and the vibe.

As your "typical" guitar player, what I read into all this is, like having 18 guitars to get "just that sound," you need to have several drum kits for the same reason.  Cool!

Of course, it's harder to store all those extra kits, ya?

Ok Mooch, I smell a long post coming. So you may want to print this out and read it the next time you're on the throne....the drum throne that is! :-Þ

Ok, now that I sort of know what your issues are, you're still in good shape. One of your biggest issues will be, Birch is a darker wood. So it won't be as snappy as some of the other woods. This leaves you with that dark, classic rock sort of sound. That's not a bad thing, but in my humble opinion, as much as I love Bonham, his son has him obliterated when we compare drum sounds. Granted, I'm more into modern technology and sounds more than the older classic sounds, but this is just insane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD-MdiUm1_Y&list=FL67MnxaNywdRqEgiyCcp3Ng&index=8

How much bigger of a room do ya need? YET...these drums do NOT sound like the room is what is making them sound so pristine. They sound close mic'd, right? It's all in the drums themselves, the tuning, the heads, the mics used, and the processing.

So when you mic up your drums and hear that garage type sound, we have a few more things to consider.

1. What mic's are you using? Though this is important if you are going for specific, or more focused sounds, just about any mic will do. Yep, I actually just said that. The reason being? I've been stuck in situations in the past where I had some nasty mics. BUT...if you put them in the right spot and know how to eq, compress and gate, as well as have an ear for what good drum tone is on the material you are working on, you won't fail.

2. How good are you at compression? This is so important, I can't even begin to tell you. Compression isn't just used to control the level on drums. It's literally used to sculpt the sound of the drums. I could give you a basic snare drum sound that would change into a rock animal by just using compression and an eq. The compressor in this example, would be used to bring out more crack and a bit more ring/resonance. Or, if you have a drum that may ring a bit too much, you can control this with release time as well as working your threshold and attack time. You can ADD more resonance using them as well. So just with a compressor alone, you can make a dull, boring snare turn into a force to reckon with.

Here's a small example. We have a fair snare here. Sounds like a snare, it' mono. It wasn't hit with much conviction, it's nothing to brag about, right? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/Snare1.mp3

Now let's take the same exact snare using the same exact hits and compress it so the snare cracks a little more and sustains a little more.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/Snare2Comp.mp3

Hear the difference? That's just using a compressor. I've done nothing else and already we took a fair, run of the mill snare, and made it start to take on a snare with more crack, sustain and conviction. Now let's push the envelope a little further.

In this example, we will use a compressor, an eq to bring out a little more high end crack as well as get rid of some of the low end that shouldn't be there, we'll use a Transient Designer to give the snare even more impact and we'll add a little verb on the snare to make it appear that it is now in stereo as opposed to the mono snare we listened to in the first two examples. This is the SAME exact snare with the same exact hits. So now we have this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/Snare3CompEqTdVerb.mp3

The snare has come to life. More crack, more sustain, a bit of a stereo spread and it no longer sounds like that boring, half hit thing we started with in the Snare 1 file. Now, if you did something like this on ALL your drums after you've recorded them, it's going to improve your sound ten-fold. The object is to get solid sounds though. You also will need to use gates depending on how good your mic'ing skills are.

The gates will stop some of the bleed and also can control how long a drum will last. This is another thing that makes drums sound amateur and garage-like. Drums lasting too long as well as improper mic techniques can be the death of you. Too much bleed in hat and snare mics....all that stuff can be brutal. So though you want a little bleed going on, controlling/gating and eq'ing your over-heads and cymbal mic's will always be crucial.

You also have a great advantage that you probably didn't know you had. One of the great things about these drum modules we have (Session Drummer, EZDrummer, BFD, Superior, Slate, etc) is you can listen to them and try to cop the sounds they have going on. Now, if you're not using a Ludwig Supra or an Acro, you're not going to get that snare sound. However, it's great to listen to the snares they have that you may like and compare them to your snare sound. What do theirs have that yours does not? This is an awesome way to help you mic, tune and set up your kit. BFD and Superior have some of the most realistic kit pieces out. What better programs to model your real recorded drums from, ya know what I mean? 

Another thing to remember...and this is mega important. Quite a few engineers/producers talk with their heads up their butts. Meaning, they try their best to make you think they are telling you the truth when in reality, they are lying so bad while laughing all the way home. It's the entertainment business...no one wants to share any super hard core ideas that will take food off of their table today. So don't always believe what you read....unless it's me telling it to you because I have nothing to lose and would pat you on the back if anything I ever shared with you made you money. :)

And last but not least, do not be afraid to resample or hybrid. Just about every recorded drum sound today has layers of samples on top along with the real drum sounds. Don't feel bad if you wind up having to do this. 98% of the industry is doing it too. Using something like Drumagog is actually brilliant because you can get the sound of one drum and then mix in the sound of another. For example....

Say you felt that snare we have up there ^ needed a bit more snare strainer or even "ring" to it. That particular snare doesn't have ring in it. We'd have to re-record the snare with another snare drum if you wanted more ring or snare stainer sound, right? In most cases the answer would be yes. Fortunately for us, we have programs like Drumagog. In 5 seconds I could load up a snare (preferably something brass since that rings really nice) tune it to the original and then mix just the right amount in...and presto....more ring to our snare.

You may have a kick that thuds really well but may lack beater attack. Sometimes you just can't add in this beater attack with an eq. So, you bring in another kick drum with more beater using Drumagog on top of the one you have, mix it in just right and bang...more beater sound in your thuddy kick drum.

So there are lots of things you can do here Mooch. The biggest thing in real drums though, is the drums themselves. The wood makes a difference....the price you pay makes a difference (unless you really get a killer deal on a great used set) tuning and what I call "studio proofing" (make sure your drums don't squeak, rattle or make weird noises etc) as well as knowing how to mic them to get the best out of that kit.

I mention price because lets face it...a set of DW's is going to annihilate a set of lower line Tama's. Sonor's are going to rip an entry level set of Pearl to shreds. There are certain drums that are just made for recording. Yamaha Recording Custom, DW, Sonor, Tama Super Star or Star Classic, Pearl Masterworks etc are all incredible kits for recording. Nothing for thousands less than them really compares *most* of the time.

There is just something about a high end drum kit that shines. There are people that will argue with me, but 7 times out of 10, the greatest recorded drums sounds are usually on higher end kits. Then again, it depends on what an individual considers "great recorded drums". To me that's drummers like Neil Peart, Mike Portnoy, Carter Bruford, Dennis Chambers, and especially, Dave Weckl here....first drummer that plays. Just listen to that kit...man...this is totally a killer drum sound to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJsybbSHfx4&list=FL67MnxaNywdRqEgiyCcp3Ng&index=15

Hear how rich they sound Mooch? That sound richness there comes from the drums...not the player or anything else. Inexpensive drums sound like inexpensive drums. Sure, the player can make a difference but you or I play well enough to where if you put us on one of those kits, we'd still sound like a million bucks. Put us on a set of Kent and it won't matter how good we play...the sound just isn't there.

Anyway, I'd say I'm sorry for this long post but I warned you ahead of time. LOL! :) I hope you enjoyed this and got something out of it. If I can help in any way, or you have questions, let me know and I'll try to help you out. :)

-Danny

Watching a commercially produced Led Zeppelin video and assuming that I am hearing what I seem to be watching is a an act of suspension of disbelief that I have long since abandoned.

:-)


best regards,
mike

@Danny...

Question for you. I have been considering using an acoustic set of drums but not sure of which ones to look into...you have some favorite ones? 

BTW...I've been keeping some of your posts in here...need more time to go through them!! LOL!!


edit...love missing keypads...grrrrr

Interesting video this:
http://www.youtube.com/watchv=UJsybbSHfx4&list=FL67MnxaNywdRqEgiyCcp3Ng&index=15 

Steve Gadd is the only one actually playing anything meaningful. The other two are playing a lot of rubbish actually. I love Weckl in Electric Band for sure. There he is playing music but Chick Corea has a something to do with that. 

In this solo thing though Gadd is King and by a mile.

The player has way more to do with the sound than what Danny says. Sorry Danny but true. The player contributes a lot to any sound.

I read a story about an engineer who was recording Eric Clapton and he was raving about Eric's sound. Eric took a break and the engineer played his setup and without changing a thing he produced a sound nowhere near as good as Clapton did. He was quite amazed.

This concept of the player having a huge bearing on the sound does not only belong to a certain group of instruments, it belongs to every acoustic instrument, drums included.

Many years ago I attended a drum workshop given by Kenny Clare the drummer with Cleo Lane. He played the worst kit on the shop. A practice kit value $200. I swear he made it sound fantastic and don't ask me how. When he played it sounded like a million dollar kit. People were cueing up to buy the drums after. 

Frank Gambale is the same. No matter how cheap the guitar is he makes it sound amazing. He somehow extracts the most incredible sound out of it. I witnessed it first hand when he was still in Australia in the early 80's. His brother Nunz owned a music shop in Canberra. I played with Frank and Nunz for a few years. Frank used to play all the guitars in there. From cheap $100 strat copies up to $5000 guitars. The same sound came out of them all. His playing and picking technique just overpowers any guitar he seems to be holding. 

It's all in the drums themselves, the tuning, the heads, the mics used, and the processing. So when you mic up your drums and hear that garage type sound, we have a few more things to consider. 


 1. What mic's are you using? Though this is important if you are going for specific, or more focused sounds, just about any mic will do. Yep, I actually just said that. The reason being? I've been stuck in situations in the past where I had some nasty mics. BUT...if you put them in the right spot and know how to eq, compress and gate, as well as have an ear for what good drum tone is on the material you are working on, you won't fail.


 2. How good are you at compression? This is so important, I can't even begin to tell you. Compression isn't just used to control the level on drums. It's literally used to sculpt the sound of the drums. I could give you a basic snare drum sound that would change into a rock animal by just using compression and an eq. The compressor in this example, would be used to bring out more crack and a bit more ring/resonance. Or, if you have a drum that may ring a bit too much, you can control this with release time as well as working your threshold and attack time. You can ADD more resonance using them as well. So just with a compressor alone, you can make a dull, boring snare turn into a force to reckon with.

Danny, Thank you for the detailed response! WOW! incredibly helpful. 

The drum mics I am using are - Cad Pro 7  http://www.guitarcenter.com/CAD-PRO-7-7-Piece-Drum-Microphone-Pack-102796992-i1126745.gc?source=4WWRWXGP&kpid=102796992  

That's all that's in my budget for right now.  I have been using a Sure57 on high hat. I am thinking of buying a Shure 52A for kick 

One Problem I am having is Bleed. But I am suppose that's because I am use to Superior Drummer and mixing without bleed. 


The BIGGER problem is the sound of the toms. It's "dead" Kinda like Ringo's Toms with a tea Towel over them. You're right in your old school assessment of Birch. There is not much sustain in the toms.   It is a used kit and I haven't changed the heads on them. I did tune them but they still sound dead. They have Evans clear heads on them. (Paid $750 for them with cymbals and hardware) http://i154.photobucket.c...056/DrumsCroppedII.jpg

The snare and the Kick are good and I could live with the cheap Sabian B8 Cymbals I have for right now. 

Maybe new Clear evens heads will make a difference or a different tuning. 

Its just starting to get warm here in Chicago so In a week or so I will set them up again in the garage and try again. There is a CD I am working on and I am having a "real" drummer play on "real" drums. So I'll probably start experimenting soon again. You gave me a lot of good tips. The drummer I am using has a DP kit by the way, Maybe we will just use his set to record. 

The second part of your question about how well I know compression. I think I am fair at it but most likely miles behind where your knowledge is on using it and when to use it. how "x" settings will  give you "y" results. I am always learning. 

By the way... for whatever its worth - I have always though the drum sound on Paul Simon's "50 Ways To Leave Your Lover " was the perfect drum sound match for what the song was calling for. 

If I can be as good as matching drum tones to songs as well as that one does.. I'd be happy. 

Thanks Danny .. your input is invaluable!

Paul   

Jeff Evans


The player has way more to do with the sound than what Danny says. Sorry Danny but true. The player contributes a lot to any sound. 

 

That's ok Jeff, it's quite alright for us to disagree on this. :) I only speak from my own experience of doing this for many years. The proof of it is..and I mean this professionally, not with ego. I can play drums well. Put me on a set of Kent and mic them. Then put me on a set of DW's. The differences will be astounding. It will matter NOT how well I play. The sound of ass will eminate out of those Kents even though my playing will be tight. Keep in mind, when I say the player doesn't matter, I am assuming the player CAN actually play and doesn't sound like a 3 day hack that is just getting behind the kit for the first time. I'm sure if you think about it like that, there's no way you would disagree with me. Try it yourself. Go buy an old, used drum set from a music store or something super cheap for $300. Then compare them to your good kit. Your playing isn't what makes drums sound good or bad IF you can play. The drums either sound good, or they do not sound good. Neail Peart on a set of Kents would still sound bad "quality" wise.
 
You mention Gambale and guitars....this is a totally different animal my friend. I can say the same for myself. Give me any guitar and a decent amp and I will sound like me. This is not the case with drums Jeff. Drums are all instrument....guitars need an amp which can mask the nastiness of a guitar. You can plug any electric guitar known to man into my rig and it will sound acceptable. You don't have those same options with drums. You can't change the amp voicing unless you're using boutique pre-amps for select drums. You can only do so much with drums. They either work or they don't. It all comes from the wood. Guitar in this example, wouldn't hold any clout unless we were using acoustic guitar.
 
Remember, all of this is keeping in mind the people playing these instruments can play. We all know that a bad player will make any instrument sound worse. However, in MY personal experience, I can mask bad playing with good sound selection. I can make a bad drummer at least have a good sounding kit even if his playing isn't all that. I can make a guitar player that isn't very good have a smokin' tone. I can make a bassist that uses a pick have less pick attack and make him blend in the mix. There are work-arounds....but you cannot work around something that will just never sound right on a recording no matter how good the player is. This is what I was getting at. :)

-Danny

Mooch4056

It's all in the drums themselves, the tuning, the heads, the mics used, and the processing. So when you mic up your drums and hear that garage type sound, we have a few more things to consider. 


1. What mic's are you using? Though this is important if you are going for specific, or more focused sounds, just about any mic will do. Yep, I actually just said that. The reason being? I've been stuck in situations in the past where I had some nasty mics. BUT...if you put them in the right spot and know how to eq, compress and gate, as well as have an ear for what good drum tone is on the material you are working on, you won't fail.


2. How good are you at compression? This is so important, I can't even begin to tell you. Compression isn't just used to control the level on drums. It's literally used to sculpt the sound of the drums. I could give you a basic snare drum sound that would change into a rock animal by just using compression and an eq. The compressor in this example, would be used to bring out more crack and a bit more ring/resonance. Or, if you have a drum that may ring a bit too much, you can control this with release time as well as working your threshold and attack time. You can ADD more resonance using them as well. So just with a compressor alone, you can make a dull, boring snare turn into a force to reckon with.

Danny, Thank you for the detailed response! WOW! incredibly helpful. 

The drum mics I am using are - Cad Pro 7  http://www.guitarcenter.com/CAD-PRO-7-7-Piece-Drum-Microphone-Pack-102796992-i1126745.gc?source=4WWRWXGP&kpid=102796992  

That's all that's in my budget for right now.  I have been using a Sure57 on high hat. I am thinking of buying a Shure 52A for kick 

One Problem I am having is Bleed. But I am suppose that's because I am use to Superior Drummer and mixing without bleed. 


The BIGGER problem is the sound of the toms. It's "dead" Kinda like Ringo's Toms with a tea Towel over them. You're right in your old school assessment of Birch. There is not much sustain in the toms.   It is a used kit and I haven't changed the heads on them. I did tune them but they still sound dead. They have Evans clear heads on them. (Paid $750 for them with cymbals and hardware) http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/mooch4056/DrumsCroppedII.jpg

The snare and the Kick are good and I could live with the cheap Sabian B8 Cymbals I have for right now. 

Maybe new Clear evens heads will make a difference or a different tuning. 

Its just starting to get warm here in Chicago so In a week or so I will set them up again in the garage and try again. There is a CD I am working on and I am having a "real" drummer play on "real" drums. So I'll probably start experimenting soon again. You gave me a lot of good tips. The drummer I am using has a DP kit by the way, Maybe we will just use his set to record. 

The second part of your question about how well I know compression. I think I am fair at it but most likely miles behind where your knowledge is on using it and when to use it. how "x" settings will  give you "y" results. I am always learning. 

By the way... for whatever its worth - I have always though the drum sound on Paul Simon's "50 Ways To Leave Your Lover " was the perfect drum sound match for what the song was calling for. 

If I can be as good as matching drum tones to songs as well as that one does.. I'd be happy. 

Thanks Danny .. your input is invaluable!

Paul   

Hi Paul,
 
You're quite welcome. We'll get those drums sounding cool...we just may need to experiment a bit. :) You should be able to get good sound with the mic's you're using. I've used 57's on an entire kit with good results. You can try a few 421's on the toms. I like those the best these days. Something about that 421 on toms and dirty guitars that just makes me smile. Heck, I've mic'd kits using all EV 357, 457 and 757 mics. When you get that sweet spot and have a good kit, honest when I tell you Paul, the drums do the work for you. This is why most real studio's have killer kits in their rooms. We have 3 kits at our place. A set of Tama, Sonor and we just ordered a set of DW's last week. We bought a couple of those mic packages for drums...ever see those? (Ah I see you have a set lol sorry) Some of them work really well.
 
I bought them because I got them for a slamming price and well, you can never have enough mic's in your locker. But some of them work really well. I'm weird with mic's though....I can honestly use just about anything and make it work. See that's the thing in this field. If you have to really work something, you're using the wrong piece to get your results. You should be able to get good results with what you have. The drums are probably more the problem though. Uggh...yeah Ringo type toms just ain't for me. He did beat them pretty good in a few spots...and always played for the songs....I just tend to like a bit more of a rock sound myself.
 
Now see, the 50 ways drum kit is a good one. I always liked that snare too. It fits perfectly and if a drummer were to bash away on that song, he'd ruin it. The Evans heads may make your toms even more dead. I think I'd maybe go with Pinstripes. They always sound killer to me and what I prefer.
 
Let me ask you, when you say they sound dead...do they have mufflers on them Paul? If so, new heads should fix the dead sound and if you let up on the muffler (little felt that pushes against the head to deaden it) that will help also. Tuning the heads right will help too. When you buy heads (might as well buy bottom heads too....I know it sucks to buy all that and also put them on....uggh....but trust me, it will make a world of difference I promise you) buy one of those torque wrench tuners. They are awesome for tuning your kit to perfection. That alone should make an incredible difference with your toms. If you can change out all the heads...snare and kick too, that kit will be like new. Tighten up all nuts and bolts, check for squeaks etc, tune with that torque wrench and your recordings should improve ten-fold.
 
Bleed is always going to be there. You have to experiment with your mics to see which is the best way to handle your situation while also watching your levels when you record. Most times your hat mic is going to be the lowest and you'll wind up just blending it in a little with the rest of your instruments. One of the keys to controlling bleed besides gates and compression, is eq. You'll be amazed at how much of the other instruments you can remove just by high passing, low passing and then sculpting in the middle.
 
Once you have the eq curve that best accentuates that mic, you can gate it to get out some other unwanted nasties. Then you can compress and do whatver else you need and the kit will start to shape up. A lot of it will always be trial and error until you find that sweet spot. But you'll get it. Maybe some time if you feel like it, you can share a file of the drums with me so I can listen to it and maybe give you a few pointers. That's really all there is to it Paul....we sometimes need to learn WHAT to listen for and once you do, this lightbulb goes off and everything just falls into place. :) Anyway....glad some of this was helpful. Keep me posted on things and let me know if you need anything. :)
 
-Danny