sharke

mgh

LP you are of course right. unfortunately alongside that sentiment for freedom, free speech and charity goes economic rapacity, lack of social cohesion, a predilection for old-fashioned values like owning a gun, and a fundamental Christian ethos, which makes for better 'news' for us in the rest of the world.

As an ex-Brit living in America I will have to say I balk at this kind of thing. It's good old European snobbery of the kind that I admit I also took part in before I lived here. I feel that having lived substantial portions of my life in both countries, I feel qualified to comment. I really don't know what you mean by "lack of social cohesion" - America is no different from any other Western country in that some places you'll find social cohesion, other places you won't. Just how much social cohesion is there in Britain? There are no ghettos there? Of course there are. I know Britain well. There is a tremendous amount of social deprivation, especially in the inner cities. I grew up in Newcastle, epicenter of the "chav." And let's not forget that Britain has almost FOUR times the level of violent crime as the US. 


What exactly is wrong with "old-fashioned values"? Are you suggesting they are any worse than the modern values which, since the early 70's have seen an exponential explosion in virtually every social problem from drug abuse to teenage pregnancy to violent crime and gang activity? There are some old-fashioned values that needed to die a death, sure. But I don't see much to celebrate with modern values, which seem to be churning out more scum in society than there ever was. 


As for owning a gun, well, if you lived in a remote area in a detached house and someone burst into your home at 2am, you have an inalienable right to defend yourself. You have to understand that guns give the right of self defense to people who do not have the physical strength to defend themselves from marauding thugs. Self defense is its primary role. Yes, Americans take that right very seriously, and take a far more individualist attitude to life than Europeans. It's not a bad thing. I remember when I first moved to America, I lived on Nantucket for a while, and I was taken aback by how many people I met there who had built their own houses, dealt with their own sewage and took their own trash to the dump. It was just one example of the kind of self-reliance that, although admittedly in short supply in a lot of American cities, was a marked contrast to the kind of attitude I was used to in Britain. 

as usual you are talking out of your arse. violent crime in the UK and US are compared very differently - in the UK is ANY crime against the person, including minor offences. in the US only 4 major crimes are reported as 'violent'. 
 my original post was intended to be tongue in cheek - we all have national stereotypes which are more or less inaccurate. 
 but two things - yes, there is less of a social state in the US, in the rest of the civilised world we have organised collectively to deal with trash and waste via local taxation, and poverty and health via national taxation...

and secondly, firearms homicide are 40 times the rate in the US than in the UK. so clearly you are far safer with a shotgun in your home in a remote area.
i know see, after two discursions on this forum, why you are a ****wit of the highest order.

all of which has nothing to do with those immoral and horrible people who decide to murder and mutilate the innocent. i really hope they can find those responsible.

mgh

 

as usual you are talking out of your arse. violent crime in the UK and US are compared very differently - in the UK is ANY crime against the person, including minor offences. in the US only 4 major crimes are reported as 'violent'. 
my original post was intended to be tongue in cheek - we all have national stereotypes which are more or less inaccurate. 
but two things - yes, there is less of a social state in the US, in the rest of the civilised world we have organised collectively to deal with trash and waste via local taxation, and poverty and health via national taxation...

and secondly, firearms homicide are 40 times the rate in the US than in the UK. so clearly you are far safer with a shotgun in your home in a remote area.
i know see, after two discursions on this forum, why you are a ****wit of the highest order.

Fair point re: violent crime, however even accounting for the differences in reporting, the UK rate is substantially higher. As for gun ownership and gun deaths, the US rate is indeed higher, largely due to the fact that America has significantly more large cities. Most of the firearm deaths here (around 67%) happen in large inner cities (in which gun ownership is banned, interestingly enough). 

I don't know how to answer your "less of a social state" claim, except to say that it's completely unsubstantiated, not based on experience, and to be quite frank, betrays your prejudice and ignorance. 


But I see that I have gotten your panties in a bunch and that you have called me a bad word. Not too worried about that, I encounter the same reaction all the time when dealing with people who cannot stand to see their world view challenged. 

Oh and by the way mgh, I'm sorry you can't see the value in self reliance and individual responsibility, but it is highly respected in this country. Besides which, I never even hinted at the fact that America doesn't have municipal trash collection, or national taxes, or welfare safety nets. But you just went ahead and presumed that is the case anyway, which further cements the case that you are completely ignorant about the country you're bashing. 

mgh
   

as usual you are talking out of your arse. violent crime in the UK and US are compared very differently - in the UK is ANY crime against the person, including minor offences. in the US only 4 major crimes are reported as 'violent'. 
 
and secondly, firearms homicide are 40 times the rate in the US than in the UK. so clearly you are far safer with a shotgun in your home in a remote area. 

You have no idea what you are talking about.  There may be four major categories of violent crime, as defined by the FBI, but these are more of the beginning of a concept map to what can be considered a violent crime, rather than the only 4 crimes that can be considered violence.

Our criminal justice code, is the most complex in the entire world.  Murder, Rape, Assault and Robbery have so many levels and sub-categories...   For example:  Capital Murder or more commonly 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, negligent homicide or 3rd degree murder, and man 1, 2, and 3, there may be more, I just don't know.  Then you can Assault, which also divides endlessly, and one subcategory is misdemeanor battery, and rape which divides to lewd and lascivious, and a whole bunch of other things, I am not a lawyer; so I do not know the entire tree for rape..   and robbery which I am sure divides 50 or 60, maybe even 70 and 80 times.

If you are drunk, and behind the wheel of a car, you will get, "vehicular homicide."  Now, that is definitely a violent crime...  Its very famous, because we all know, "we can not drink and drive."

You are so wrong with what you are saying, its pathetic that you are telling other people they are, "talking out of their arse."

  If you mug somebody in the USA with your fist, than that is like, "robbery/battery," or whatever the law calls it.  But if you have a gun..  Than that is, "armed robbery." 

You are so far off the mark..

There are thousands, and thousands of laws in our country.  There are very complex ratings, for all sorts of violent crime, including hate crime, and treason, and domestic violence...

Saying there are only four crimes, is like saying, "there is only 1 type of vst plugin."  Ergo, "a plugin that is a vst."   But what happens is you fail to realize that what the FBI categories as 4 crimes, is just the name of a family of each type of crime.

That's just plain English.  That is language..  Its a matter of semantics..   Is the sky blue?  Basically yes, but not really, no...

Sounds like a great place to practice law.

If people were mourning the victims of a similar act anywhere else in the world they probably wouldn't have to answer for their country's politics, its laws, the content of its news, etc.     

But there's ALWAYS someone to stir things up when it's the US - among other things, by making remarks about their lack of empathy, ironically. 

sharke : "You have to understand that guns give the right of self defense to people who do not have the physical strength to defend themselves from marauding thugs."

The marauding thugs may be part of the problem :-)

We don't have marauding thugs where I live, so I don't need a gun. I wouldn't live here if I had to own one to feel safe (now there's an oxymoron).

I go for a walk in the park most evenings in the dark. I have yet to meet at thug.

Sharing wealth goes a long way in keeping people happy, something the wealthy sometimes have a hard time accepting.

Paul - having lived there for a while, I'm sure there are certain parts of Montreal where you may not feel as comfortable walking alone at night. Like in every big city.

Paul P


sharke : "You have to understand that guns give the right of self defense to people who do not have the physical strength to defend themselves from marauding thugs."

The marauding thugs may be part of the problem :-)

We don't have marauding thugs where I live, so I don't need a gun. I wouldn't live here if I had to own one to feel safe (now there's an oxymoron).

I go for a walk in the park most evenings in the dark. I have yet to meet at thug.

Sharing wealth goes a long way in keeping people happy, something the wealthy sometimes have a hard time accepting.

Regardless of whether or not "marauding thugs" are a common feature of your immediate environment, that is absolutely no guarantee that some day, a violent scumbag is going to attack you. Having a gun in the house doesn't mean you are "living in fear of violence" any more than having a fire extinguisher means you are "living in fear of fire." It just means you are prepared for such an eventuality. 


Think of it this way: every single murder victim goes their entire life without being murdered, until it happens. Rape, robbery, home invasion - these are all things that the vast majority of us will never experience. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be prepared in case it does. We've evolved brains capable of foresight for a reason. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong, morally or logically, with owning a gun. 99.99% of legal gun owners would never in a million years think about using their weapon in anger. Most of the violence in the US happens in inner cities and other deprived areas, perpetrated by thugs who have absolutely no morals whatsoever, and I could talk at length about the reasons why such people have proliferated in number since the early 70's. You cannot always rely on the police. I have had personal and terrifying experience of this. Sometimes, you have to take your survival in your own hands. Without the existence of weapons, you are at the mercy of whomever is bigger and stronger than you. With a gun, you have leveled the playing field somewhat. How is a 120lb woman supposed to defend herself against a 220lb man? So you live in Mr. Rogers neighborhood and nothing bad ever happens. Well, good for you! The rest of us aren't so lucky.