bitflipper
dub, you live in Seattle. We've been paying for stuff like this ($2.6M last year) since 1973:
 

Touche.  Our money goes to pigs and all manner of oddities. I know several artists with no jobs and somehow afford Seattle's high rent prices.

Ok interesting, somewhat off topic but musing within the field.  There has to be a fundamental shift in this perverse idea of work and what constitutes work.  Essentially the idea of full employment is furphy a way to control the masses and to make the working class fight amongst themselves, i.e. "my taxes pay for your art" as Bit is saying. 
 
In Oz, the working class jobs are almost gone, and also the middle white collar jobs are almost gone.  Working class meaning factory and manufacturing, Oz does not make anything practically anymore.  White middle class meaning call centre work, all the call centres are in India and the Philippines and even these jobs are under threat because of automation.  I'm not sure about Brittan I think it's a similar thing there, I know the US still manufactures though. 
 
My point is there has not been any replacement jobs, we need to start transferring the supposed wealth of the west into the production of ideas i.e. people paid to make art and music.  I know to some this may sound somewhat wishy washy but ideas are what is going to transform the world going on for the next two hundred years...unless as one of the above posters has said all electricity goes out because of some global catastrophe.  I would even put that the people who generate ideas be paid a working wage.  This is after all the information age, not the industrial age.
 
The third world is going through what the west went through 200 years ago, when the third worlds industrial revolution ends and it will be a quicker one than ours, the world will be a different place.  There will be no blue collar jobs, no administration jobs.  The world wont need as many people to sustain the growth and prosperity it once did, we possibly finally will live up to the potential of humanity.  But the first step is paying people for their art and the contributions that art makes.
 
Case in point, I have not had a job for quite some time, I'm a terrible employee.  Not for jobs that require proper thinking, analysis, planning ect but for the blue collar ones and white collar ones that require automatic responses.  I think too hard and over think.  Don't get me wrong...I have tried, I did some audio-visual work, which is blue collar and call centre stuff, I was actually very good at survey's but the anxiety both jobs created almost crippled me.  Having to meet KPI's and being told NO! was doing my self-esteem harm and the anxiety of the AV stuff i.e. not a permanent job was also doing me harm.  Then my ankles gave out after doing the AV job, I still have some tendonitis in both ankles.  I still regularly apply for jobs, though albeit ones I am qualified for but because I have a bad reputation for being difficult, I have yet to succeed.  
 
So for me, having a government benefit has allowed me to continue my education, and here is the point about paying for ideas.  The government has paid me to learn, think, create and analyse, perhaps again rather than tut tuting an idea, a solution should be sort and that solution possibly should be tied to education i.e. you want to receive benefits you have to get a music degree or a vocational certificate in sound and audio (not the sound and audio courses that are around at the moment, these all look back to the past...a new sound and audio course designed on the needs of today) but I would also suggest paying these people a living wage...not some subsistent grant. 
 
Ben  

Ben, I think what you speak of is a totally differnt topic that probably veers closer toppolitics than I or Cakewalk would want to discuss here. Can't speak for Cakewalk so that's just a guess. In other words I will just touch the music/artist related portions of that. Bottomline is that regardless of what subsidies we give our artists, we can't legislate public demand and value. Yes, there is value in assisting artists and any other vocation to stimulate culture and industry, but no way do I feel that any segment of society capable of work should be more valued than others as to deserve a completely free pass. If we applied the same logc across other disciplines, life would come to a standstill

I personally dislike the idea of tax funded art. It suggests the idea of faceless bureaucrats (or committees) deciding artistic value. Or politicians deciding that what the masses need to improve their intellect is opera instead of rock music. We all have different ideas as to what constitutes artistic value, so I'd prefer to vote with my dollars rather than hand over the responsibility to some government official who thinks she knows what's best for us.

The problem is if you start subsidizing anyone who claims to be an artist, then where do you draw the line? I could just decide that work isn't for me, and announce that I have grand ideas of bending paper clips into unicorns. Who's to say my artistic vision is less worthy of subsidy than anyone else's?

Great thread for sure here. One of the things I see happening is people of today are just no longer interested in anything dealing with older technology unless it wows them. Why play an instrument when you can play an electronic something CLOSE to an instrument that gives you instant results? It's like...why dial a phone number when auto-dial can do it? Heck, I remember when I used to remember the numbers of everyone in my life. Now that I don't ever dial anything manually, if I got arrested and needed to call one person....the only number I know would be my parents...who are now both deceased.
 
That said, I sincerely believe this is what the industry is all about. Change and keeping interest. Even if that change is not to our liking, it has to keep interest. As a teacher in the recording/music field, I lose a child/adult as soon as I don't make it interesting. They'd rather learn a cool tapping lick on guitar or some cool effect in recording that could be used to impress someone on the spot for 10 minutes over a years worth of stuff that could impress those friends for a lifetime. This is the new world we live in. Longevity is gone. You live for the moment and do whatever you can to make an impression or make a buck because tomorrow is promised to no one. As soon as you try and keep up, things have changed.
 
This is happening with everything really. We have to cater to those who buy. We can even apply it to cover bands. We in our 40's and 50's don't go out as often. We have other things in our lives....children, grand children, we work hard and maybe feel like we don't need to be somewhere so we stay in and sleep or watch TV. Those that play in bands....if you're in a classic rock band, your people show up for one set and are gone by 11 pm. The rest of your night, you play to crickets.
 
Create a cool look, have all the right stuff in your band and play the new stuff that the younger generation is loving, you play to a packed house for the entire night. It matters not how good you play....what you play or how great the tone of your instrument is. Can you sell drinks? You have to, you're now in the alcohol business and are no longer a musician.
 
My point in mentioning the above.....this is the same with the music industry. Can you sell drinks = can you sell product? Whether it's computer generated, computer manipulated, not very musical or delivered in a way that we musicians who have worked hard at our instrument can swallow, you have to just accept that this is where we are in the world.
 
Take a look at what sells and ask yourselves why.
 
Rap: successful because those that love it, actually support it. You don't sell millions stealing it off the net. When a new rap CD is ready to come out, you can see people waiting in line. Budgets are tolerable most times. 200% profit. (If it were a rock CD, you'd see people waiting ONLINE....to steal it. Sad but true. If a classic rock band could sell 1 million today, they'd throw a party.)
 
Country: successful because the songs are catchy, it's one of the few styles of music that still has good playing and singing as well as the best production you could ever want if you are an engineer. Finally a style of music that doesn't just use massive compression! It's also purchased by a wide array of people from teens to older adults. One size fits a lot with country. They can get away with bigger budgets....they make the money to support the habit. They've embraced the new technology here as well. Some of it fits, some of it sounds terrible. People don't seem to be complaining.
 
Kiddy pop: Most kids can't afford to buy it, so mom and dad buys it for them. They also have an oath sort of like we did to our stars. We'd buy or do anything to support them. When the kids love someone, it doesn't matter if they can even sing or perform really.
 
Top 40/solo artists: This stuff is always going to be around. Disco will never die. We need to dance to something...even if you don't dance. And there has to always be something sexual with eye candy to reel people in.
 
In my opinion, though the art has changed and the majority of songs aren't as strong, (I really do like modern country as far as good songs go...though some of the words don't do anything for me) the art part is even more interesting. Though I would like to see it more musical (which in some cases, it's still awesome if you look for it) I've seen some really incredible innovation. Some of it not for me, but I have to tip my hat to anyone that can make a buck in this industry or create something new that makes me go "wow...wish I thought of that!" Do I think the quality of music has gone down? Most definitely. But the reason for that is the same reason most of us are being bled dry by our governments. Greed.
 
Did a classic rock band really need a 500k album advance? Seriously....today, if we play our cards right, we can get a totally slamming recording in a slamming studio for $40,000 or less with producer included. That's really not a lot when you go back in time and look at what some of those guys were getting. Not to mention all the added stuff in their contracts that had to be a part of the deal. Granted, signed artists should be taken care of. But when they are greedy like sports athletes, this is why one day, someone says "You know what...screw 'em, we can just kill some quality, change a few faces and people will still learn to enjoy it. They may not take to it at first, but they will fall right in to place eventually."
 
Look at the grunge era. It didn't catch on immediately. Why? Because though the art was cool and some of it was really unique, people weren't ready for a garage band sound. But alas...they got used to it and what followed inspired an entire generation which also opened the industry up to those that didn't need to be incredible musicians. It was ok to sound like Cobain instead of being as polished as Bonjovi or Def Lep.
 
Why spend 500k on a band in the studio when you can do the album for 10k or less? Look at rap....those dudes don't really need much budget at all to record those albums. It's 200% profit for a record that literally costs about 5k or less to record. Add in the producers and beat masters etc and it goes to 50k or 100k, but again...consider the outcome. Rap albums sell in the millions....rock guys are lucky if they see 500k in sales.....unless you're the new teen rock band that totally catches on.
 
Truth be told, we actually have choices. :) You either see how artistic you can be and use all the tools that are offered today, or you go old school. If you want to make a few dollars with your music, you look at what's making money. If you just enjoy the art of music and love playing instruments and recording, you're right where you need to be. Though there are times I show my disgust for certain things that are happening, I have to either accept and appreciate it or ignore it. I do all 3 on a daily basis when I have to. :)
 
One cool thing about being so fortunate to beta test for many companies, they have lead me to try things within their software that I wouldn't normally try. Some of these things are what we musicians hate and wouldn't think of doing within our music. That said, those things are tools....and the tools of today can help make tomorrow while becoming a part of our own art. The real artist embraces anything and everything but never dances to the beat of any other drum but their own. :) Whatever will be, will be. I say we just do what we do while enjoying every minute of it. :)
 
-Danny

Danny:  That was insightful, relevant and just generally awesome.  Really interesting to hear from someone who has a feel for the industry.  I'm glad everyone isn't pissed and jaded.  It looks like we can be ourselves and still live in this new paradigm after all. It might not be the most nurturing for, say, a prog rock instrumentalist, but it is what it is.   Thanks to the interweb, there is a niche audience for everything.  Lets all hope the niche we fit in is REALLY FREAKING BIG, and growing everyday. 

Sharke, I think if the world followed the "who's to say what is and isn't" art thing too literally the world would be a little more sterile. I think a building, park, etc is more appealing than one without even if don't care for the art.

Danny, interesting how one can agree with someone's general view yet have an opposite take on individual parts. I find modern country to be mostly horrible in terms of songwriting. I realize that not being an avid listener of modern country limits me to the pop songs with twang sold under that label, but what I hear is oftenthe same pop themes with a few stereotypical niche topics like trucks :)

sven450
Danny:  That was insightful, relevant and just generally awesome.  Really interesting to hear from someone who has a feel for the industry.  I'm glad everyone isn't pissed and jaded.  It looks like we can be ourselves and still live in this new paradigm after all. It might not be the most nurturing for, say, a prog rock instrumentalist, but it is what it is.   Thanks to the interweb, there is a niche audience for everything.  Lets all hope the niche we fit in is REALLY FREAKING BIG, and growing everyday. 

 
Thanks Sven, that's how I feel as well. Even if the niche isn't big, it's nice to at least have one. :)

dubdisciple
Danny, interesting how one can agree with someone's general view yet have an opposite take on individual parts. I find modern country to be mostly horrible in terms of songwriting. I realize that not being an avid listener of modern country limits me to the pop songs with twang sold under that label, but what I hear is oftenthe same pop themes with a few stereotypical niche topics like trucks :)

Oh I may have exaggerated my love for country, dub. I like when people sing in key with good voices. We definitely can find that in the majority of country. I love production that moves me. You know, polished stuff that is an art all in its own. Sort of like the how some people like myself take pride in appearance.....meaning, if it takes me 30 minutes to do my hair as opposed to going out and looking like I just rolled out of bed, I'll take that extra 30 minutes. :)
 
That's one thing you will notice if you ever record a good country band from the ground up, brother. All the stuff we normally do in rock where we squash the crap out of things....doesn't hold up here. You can actually use reverb, delay, chorus and other coloration devices. It makes the music sound less like a garage band...which after you record that garage band sound 500 times with singers that aren't really singers, you welcome the change.
 
I love the drum sounds, the guitar sounds as well as the guitar players. The fiddle players, the pedal steel stuff....it's just really cool and quite a challenge because THEN you have to fit all that stuff in. I like the stacked back up vocals....it's just a preference of mine really.
 
I totally agree on the cliche thing. The words (most times) in country do nothing for me. I was honestly speaking from an engineer standpoint as well as a songwriter who appreciates hit material even if it has been done before. :) See, even there...this is another point to keep in mind.
 
Though some of us might laugh at simplistic tunes that turn into hits...or we may cringe because we heard the progression before, someone found an art in sort of replicating without being accused of stealing. And, they don't have to fly a desk for a living...lol....so you have to try and look at it for what it is instead of what we feel it should be. If hits were so easy, none of us would be on this forum. LOL! :)
 
Then again, hits aren't for everyone and that's understandable too. For the guy that could care less about making a dime, it's all about art and personal satisfaction. I get all that brother, I really do. That said, we still have to see the art in something even if that something isn't something we're down with. You'd be surprised what you can pull from that stuff if you disect it and take from it what may just be already in your style of choice.
 
I remember copping a piece of a Madonna song years ago in my music, but I sort of did it backwards. The change was so different, people commented on it positvely for quite some time. Here I was cringing hoping no one would ever notice...which they didn't....but I was more afraid of not fitting in...which I did totally. :) You just never know.....it's best to keep an open mind even when something is simplistic and done. It can be as powerful as the progressive riff that has tension and adds that little surprise when you fuse them together. :)
 
-Danny

Danny..i think i will listen to some modern country and listen for prodiction value. Thanks for the insight.