[quote=]mike_mccue


Gain is an actual description of change in voltage: Voltage out - Voltage in = gain.

I think sometimes, heck often times, guitarists use the words "high gain" when they mean "square wave".

A square wave has 3dB more RMS voltage than a sine wave with the same peak... and that's all it's ever gonna have.

Most preamps have 50dB to 80dB gain.

You can squash a sinusoidal signal into a square wave with very little gain... and indeed that is what all modern distortion circuits are doing. That's how you get the controlled mayhem sound... by tone shaping with minimum gain.

Square waves are square waves... they don't have a lot of potential for character... but a circuit can have some sort of personality with regard to how quickly it alters a sinusoidal wave and turns it into a square wave. You can appreciate all sorts of cool sounds on the front end of a signal being squashed into a square wave.  In so called "high gain" guitar amp designs that is all going on in the circuit and not in between the guitar and the input so the pickup's contribution to tonality is marginalized.

In older amp designs the squaring happens right at the first stage with the tube... it's exciting to hear a PAF make a Fender Champ scream. It never get's totally squared... there's always some rounding at the corners... and that gives it character as you push the corners flat with your pick attack.

Ummm....what? We're guitar players. Real guitar players call it gain/high gain. No one gives a rats @ss about how much pre-amp gain is going on. Why must you take part in these guitar threads when you have nothing to add that makes sense nor do you have a clue what you're talking about?
 
For God sakes, everything you mentioned here is completely out of context to what the man is asking about. He asked about the differences between his guitars, not about how distortion works or how a sinusoidal sound can be squashed. Are you really serious? Did you really feel the need to share your infinite wisdom of nothing in a thread you have no business in again? Thank God Starise is an intelligent man that can read your post and shake his head like I did or you'd be confusing another poor soul in search of real answers.

You'll know when you are really in the presence of actual high gain... it will cause the trans-conductance happening in the power amp to drive the speaker cones straight out of the front of the cabinet.

Don't ask me how I know. :-)

 
You're kidding right? Surely this whole post is meant to be a joke? I can show you what high gain is without a power amp. No one needs a power amp to experience high gain...and anyone driving the speaker cones out of the front of the cabinet shouldn't have a guitar let alone an amp. I shouldn't be surprised by any of this...but for some reason, today I am. I said it before in the past...you wouldn't know what high gain is if it came to your b-day party and brought you gifts. Why do you constantly insist you know what you are talking about when it comes to electric guitars and high gain amps? You don't play hard rock and when you do, it's on gear that couldn't get high gain if you ran 30 distortion pedals through it. Sheesh!

With cleaner signals that aren't forced into well formed squares you can easily hear how pickups react to the impedance and reactance of a good guitar amp. You can hear how the frequency response alters with amplitude.

All those details get masked when the signal is squared up by a gain circuit optimized to sculpt square waves with as little gain as possible.

 
I basically said that in a language anyone could understand without trying to fool them into thinking that I'm an amp guru or repair-man. I'd be willing to be AmpFixer wouldn't have even responded in this fashion to the questions posed by Starise.....and there's a man who really knows about amps. 

Tube amps remain popular because players can sense a dynamic relationship between the reactance at the  first  preamp stage with the pickups. There's quite literally a spring of "tension" that speaks back to the pickup and the whole becomes a system from string vibration through to the speaker cone... it's a great big spring.

 
That's only part of it. The other part is, those that like tube amps like them because they achieve tones that you just can't get using solid state. Most guitar players wouldn't know a thing about reactance the way they don't know any theory....but they can easily tell the difference between tube and tranny rigs without knowing anything about reactance or the dymanic workings of an amp. Again, what does this have to do with Starise?  

It's a lot of fun.

 
Doesn't sound it. Sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo and voice for the sake of a voice....and I don't mean amp voicings. :) 

If you plug your passive pickup into something solid state instead of a tube the spring analogy breaks down and it's like you put a big resistive dampener on the spring. It's still fun... but you aren't going to sense the dynamic springiness with the same drama. Most folks using active pickups and other solid state tone shapers are actually looking for a square wave they like the sound of so they don't miss the reduced reactance very much.

 
I disagree with this. Using a clean tone, a passive pup will sound and react nearly the same whether you use a tube or a transistor rig. The reactance doesn't come into play until you start pushing the pre-amp tubes a little or you crank the power amp to get a little power tube saturation. At a sane volume in both instances, active pups will give you a little more sensitivity no matter what amp you use. Passive pups are sort of compressed/limited when compared to active pups. The dynamics are literally in the pups when in the active position.
 
This is something you either have to A/B or mod a guitar like I have to where you have active and passive pups in one shot. A push/pull knob allows me to be active or passive. When in passive mode, dynamics are more even. I can strike my strings and the hardest strike will not differentiate much. Go into active mode and my fingers literally control dynamics while a hard strike may give me a clipping sound depending if I've set my gain to accentuate my passive sound or my active sound. It matters not what amp I use to achieve this....though a loud tube amp will contribute dynamically to the equation.

I love guitars and amps... they let you make temporary sculpture with air molecules. :-)

 
Spoken by a true virtuoso that knows about high gain....pfff. -face palm-
 
Jonbuoy, where do I sign up for your "put Mccue in his place" team? Count me in from here on out.
 
-Danny

Show me with an oscilloscope... and we'll eventually end up agreeing about why we are hearing what we are hearing.

all the best,
mike

Put this on your silly scope...

This is called high gain using a tube pre without a power amp or cabs. No scope needed. Your amp rant was the usual drivel. This is also sustain to die for without cranking a power amp so loud you damage your hearing and bother your neighbors. Don't like the tone? That's fine...this is called high gain without all that misleading daft information you posted. Scope it, cop it, roll it up and smoke it....it's known as high gain to a guitar player unless he's an amp repairman/builder.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/HighGainTubePre_NoPowerAmpNoCabs.mp3

This is passive/active using a clean sound. No amp needed. The first two times I play the chords, I'm using passive and striking hard. There is barely any change in dynamics as I said because most humbuckers sort of limit themselves. Limit as in "limiter". You'll hear me kick my active switch on, and the next two chord passages use active. The expression comes from my fingers and how the active pups react. More proof your amp rant is fallacy and not a necessity.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Passive_Active.mp3

I really could care less what you consider a good driven sound, what amps you have, and what you claim to know. You barely play acoustic, have no clue about half the stuff you talk about and need to really stick to your wood-working and camera work. The only thing you seem to do good around here is mislead people with utter garbage and snarky remarks to valued members that try to really make a difference around here.

Thos of us that have a clue, have you figured out, don't kid yourself. It's amazing the people that put up with you. The day you bashed on Karl was the day a moderator should have banned you. I'll no longer be one of the people that read your crap and ignore it. Every time you try to mislead someone, I'll be right there to knock you down. ARC for life baby. :)

-Danny

Is this a great country or what? You get to say all that stuff you want to say... and I don't have to take any of it seriously.

:-)




best regards,
mike

mike_mccue


Is this a great country or what? You get to say all that stuff you want to say... and I don't have to take any of it seriously.

:-)




best regards,
mike

 
Mike, maybe you could do with a little less hubris and a little more humility.

You don't know everything. None of us do. Why do you constantly have to pretend that you do?

You couldn't live next to Danny, either as a player or as the high-gain guru you're attempting to portray yourself as. The guy's a virtuoso musician who lives and breathes guitar.

Plus he happily shares his knowledge and advice with anyone who asks for it. And you know what, he does it a friendly, affable, and passionate manner. The one thing you'll never get is him talking down to anyone (except to you of course, where's he's comprehensively handed you your ass in those couple of posts above). Spot the difference between his approach and your condescending arrogant style.
 
I learnt more about gain and tone in a few email conversations with Danny than I'd managed to grasp in 30-odd years of playing guitar. I wanted to learn, and Danny was happy to teach me. And not by talking technical gibberish, but by explaining things properly.

Sorry for the rant, but you must realise deep down that everyone knows you're bull****ing most of the time, so heaven knows why you continue with this rather embarrassing charade.
 
 

Hi Steve,
 
 Do you have any personal thoughts about "reactance" or are you just going with what someone tells you to think?


 :-) 

best regards,
mike

mike_mccue


Is this a great country or what? You get to say all that stuff you want to say... and I don't have to take any of it seriously.

:-)




best regards,
mike

Because you don't and never do have a leg to stand on unless it's something you've made out of wood. Of course you wouln't take any of it serious; you don't know what you're talking about 90% of the time and...you just got owned AGAIN BY EXAMPLE.
 
What did the good witch of the north say to the wicked witch of the west? "Oh rubbish, you have no power here, be gone before someone drops a house on you".....AGAIN. Words to think about as I have quite a few houses I'll gladly drop on you to counter your inadequacies. 
 
As I said, I'll be waiting for you at every turn and every post where you mislead someone or treat them like they are below you. If the forum bans me for policing your fallacies, so be it...if they'd rather you be here than me, I have other places I can haunt where I'll be appreciated. :)
 
Steve: thank you for the kind words...much appreciated brother.
 
-Danny

mike_mccue


Hi Steve,

Do you have any personal thoughts about "reactance" or are you just going with what someone tells you to think?


:-) 

best regards,
mike

A real guitar player that has a clue could really care less about reactance. If something sounds good...it is good. It matters not whether reactance plays a role in anything. Again, you're so lost and clueless you're starting to believe you really are on to something.
 
A player with any sort of skill could play into an amp like an Ampeg SS-150 which is completely transistor....and create a great sound. No one cares what a graph or scope tells them, Mike. They plug into something....they either get a good sound that they like and can play with, or they don't. Some sounds are easier to play through than others. Some tube amps are absolute garbage too....so you can't always use that as an excuse. Just because an amp is tube doesn't mean it's good. I can name 6 tranny amps that will blow the doors off of some of these supposedly great tube amps.
 
Why do you have to try and make this more difficult than it really is? Sure tube amps have different characteristics than tranny amps.....put Frank Taunton into a tube amp or a tranny amp....you'll hear one thing....the sound of "greatness" and no one but Frank will know if reactance is playing a role in anything. Who knows if he'll even notice with the right tranny amp? Do you really think the majority of players think about that stuff? Not everyone is a purist...and not everyone gives a crap. If you spent more time learning to play instead of wasting time on technical mumbo jumbo that is meaningless in the real world, you just might amount to something in this field someday.
 
Finger tone is the finger PRINT of sound. Reactance and all that other happy horsesh!t is nothing but an element. Though some will claim it is a necessity, a great player sounds good on anything he plugs into on any guitar he plays and knows how to dynamically tame and control his guitar. Fact!
 
-Danny

Hey there big guy,
  

  All I said is that square waves don't care what pickup is making em...


 ...and that you don't know what you are talking about when you erroneously use the term "high gain".

  I also explained that the fattest, most awesome square wave you come up with is possibly, in a very best case scenario, a great big 3dB higher gain than the cleanest signal you may fairly compare it too.


 That should be pretty easy to understand and hard to disagree with...  but you managed to make it a personal grudge fest.










 The stuff I said about the passive pickups is kinda technical.... some players can sense it with out knowing why... some sense it and want to know more about it. Some guys actually appreciate it cause it's just so much fun.


 It's a shame to see you can't have any fun with it... it's like you think it's some kind of battle of the bands.


 
 best regards,
mike
 
edit spelling

They plug into something....they either get a good sound that they like and can play with, or they don't.


That's is it in a nutshell. I'm sick of kooky mumbo jumbo and when all is needed is to plug in and play. It's obvious after half a second whether it sounds good or not.