• Techniques
  • Acoustic Guitar -> Mic -> Melodyne Editor -> Acoustic Guitar library?
2014/09/06 22:07:41
sharke
I wonder if anyone's had any success with the above workflow. I've been really enjoying my experiments with miking guitar, and the results have been OK, but I'm still not satisfied. I could upgrade my mic of course but most of all I think it's a room issue. I've tried many different mic positions, I've even tried the old "duvet over the mic stand" which made for a deader sound but also seemed to screw with the highs. Everything I do seems to result in endless EQ twiddling and a result which would sound out of place in a commercial mix, especially when the rest of the instruments are either synth or sample based and therefore "pristine." 
 
So while I'm going to continue along this path of experimentation and learning, I need some pristine sounding guitar for a couple of songs and am considering the purchase of a decent quality guitar library. I'm thinking that I could take my existing guitar parts and convert them to MIDI using the polyphonic Melodyne algorithm (I have Editor) and then - admittedly with a lot of tweaking and editing - have that MIDI drive the samples. I've done various guitar-to-MIDI things in the past with varying levels of success, but have used the MIDI to drive synths in the past. 
 
Has anyone tried this? What were the results like? And does anyone have a recommendation for a guitar library? I've been looking at Acoustic Legends HD which seems like pretty good value considering the number of instrument comes with - including both nylon and steel (I need both). But I've heard others rave about libraries like OrangeTree and Ilya Efimov so I'm wondering if the general consensus is that Acoustic Legends falls behind newer libraries. I've been listening to some demos and they all sound pretty good but of course that doesn't really tell me how easy they are to use and how versatile they are in terms of articulations etc. 
2014/09/06 22:57:42
Mosvalve
Have you tried placing the mic over your left or right shoulder or maybe both to capture the sound you hear?
 I once used two small condenser mic with good results.
2014/09/06 23:26:51
sharke
Hmm that's an idea, I didn't think of that. 
2014/09/06 23:48:46
mixmkr
With your RME and killer recording rig...don't know what you're using for mics, but you should be able to get a great sound that imo, would trump any guitar library, especially if there's going to be any solo context of the guitar, or parts where it will really stand out.
You mention your room...go for something not so ambient to begin with and add it in later with a great verb.  In fact, I'd think that the route unless you feel your "room" has something really to offer.  Try a kitchen then if you want "lively"...or a carpeted living room for more dead sounding.
However, I'd back up a couple steps and start at the source and make sure you're using a quality sounding guitar, new or new-ish strings and a playing technique that will take advantage of those elements.  You're not going to get an old campfire beater to sound pristine...  unless you want that "campfire beater" sound!!....    and NOT to say that's what your guitar might be either !!

To summarize... good guitar and take the room out of the equation during tracking... unless your walk-in shower sounds lovely and you won't get wet!
 
2014/09/07 00:57:14
sharke
mixmkr
With your RME and killer recording rig...don't know what you're using for mics, but you should be able to get a great sound that imo, would trump any guitar library, especially if there's going to be any solo context of the guitar, or parts where it will really stand out.
You mention your room...go for something not so ambient to begin with and add it in later with a great verb.  In fact, I'd think that the route unless you feel your "room" has something really to offer.  Try a kitchen then if you want "lively"...or a carpeted living room for more dead sounding.
However, I'd back up a couple steps and start at the source and make sure you're using a quality sounding guitar, new or new-ish strings and a playing technique that will take advantage of those elements.  You're not going to get an old campfire beater to sound pristine...  unless you want that "campfire beater" sound!!....    and NOT to say that's what your guitar might be either !!

To summarize... good guitar and take the room out of the equation during tracking... unless your walk-in shower sounds lovely and you won't get wet!
 




This is what I ideally want, to be able to take as much of the room out as possible, but I'm limited in what I can do in the way of treatment. I've looked mic isolation attachments like the Auralex Mudguard (and more expensive ones) but having never used one I wouldn't know what to expect in terms of an improvement. 
 
My Spanish guitar actually sounds very nice in person and the strings are quite new. Anyway here's a short clip I recorded while trying out different mic positions, it sounds about the best of the bunch although obviously there's a lot of room for improvement. 
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s...c%20%28193%29.wav?dl=0
2014/09/07 18:30:52
Mosvalve
Condensers are so sensitive that I can hear people talking outside or anywhere in the house so it's hard to get it where it only picks up the guitar or source. Most of the time I have to place the mic very close to the guitar. Depending on the sound I want I'll place it further up the neck or close to the sound hole. Your recording sounds pretty good and sounds like the mic is not too far to the guitar. Maybe try lowering the mic and placing it closer to the guitar or hang blankets around you. The guitar sounds nice though.
2014/09/07 19:12:00
Leadfoot
I would put the mic about 12-18 inches away from the guitar at about the 12th-14th fret. But I would angle the mic slightly toward the sound hole to capture some of that beautiful low end.
2014/09/07 20:48:53
timidi
Might want to try a freebie library and see how your idea will work in reality.
Or, just sample your own guit and see if you can get believable results.
I doubt it's even worth the bother.
 
As far as your sound goes, the room is the key. If you have a good room, it doesn't matter where you put the mic.
 
What I've used is a noise reduction plug. Helps quite a bit. But still, it is a hack fix. 
 
Your link doesn't work for me.
2014/09/07 23:55:02
sharke
Thanks for having a listen guys. The link seems to be working now timidi.
 
The mic was about 12 inches away from the 12th fret, angled slightly up the neck. I'm finding that I have to whack a shelf on it to attenuate the low end a bit to fit in the mix otherwise it's getting in the way of the vocal. But perhaps I can notch some frequencies out instead of using a shelf. Really though I was hoping to get a little more sparkle and detail out of it. 
 
Perhaps what I need to do is switch to a steel string. Problem is I don't have one....actually I have a beautiful hand made steel string that sounds out of this world, but it's sitting in the closet and needs some repairs. Maybe it's time to get that baby up and running. 
 
The mic I'm using is a reasonably low priced affair but not bad at all - an AKG Perception 220. I have the bass cut switch activated. 
 
2014/09/08 08:28:55
Guitarhacker
I would hold off on the sample library and work on developing the techniques and skills to capture the acoustic with a mic.
 
I faced this same issue..... was it the guitar, the room, the old strings, the mic, my playing, or  proper mic placement and EQ?   So many variables and it was frustrating me to try to get what I considered to be a reasonable acoustic tone.
 
So I picked up a sample library and used it to record a song. Listening to it on playback..... I was impressed. I figured I had found the perfect solution. So I posted the song on the forum. Almost every single guitar picker nailed it to the wall..... "dude...that sounds like a midi guitar using samples..... it sounds so stiff and fake" and they were right. And honestly, I knew the samples had a certain stiffness and un-natural sound to them..... I was hoping no one else would pick up on that.   Wrong!  If your goal is to record for artists/publishers or film & TV libraries, trust me when I say that the folks screening the music will also know.   Choice between an obviously fake midi sounding guitar part or..... a nice very organic sounding acoustic.....  hummmmm ...which one would you pick?
 
I set about on the road to discovery..... Working with mic placement  and EQ, since I had picked up a nice Taylor, and had new strings and a nice Rode NT-2A condenser...... I was running out of excuses.
 
I suggest that you keep working on getting the art of recording the acoustic guitar among your skill set rather than trying to take the "easy way out" since real guitarists will know.  It may take some time but it will be worth it in the end.....
 
BTW: I listened to the clip and it sounded pretty nice to me. You're already more than halfway up that mountain.
 
Edit to add: On Melodyne Editor (ME)...... just say "NO" to that plan to convert to midi...... HOWEVER... it is perfectly fine to use ME in the poly mode to fix certain aspects of the music..... notes a bit sharp or flat from finger pressure or bends..... volume issues...... note timing..... delete stray notes...... yes, it's OK to use ME to fix the nits in the performance rather than trying to re-do or punch the recording.
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