• Techniques
  • A couple observations about real vs emulated amplifiers (p.4)
2014/07/12 09:04:16
The Maillard Reaction
Fantastic playing!!! It sounds a lot like he has a vintage Quadraverb™ patched between his axe and his favorite amp:
 

2014/07/12 12:13:56
Danny Danzi
Pete ^ is a killer player. Great tone and feel. Funny thing about the "Quadraverb"......the Axe II offers all that vintage gear as well as modern stuff. They don't use the real names, but they make it close enough that you know what the stuff is. The stomp boxes are insane. Tube Screamers.....fuzz stuff, it's really amazing.
 
Sharke: Try again today or on Monday.....they usually have more in a day or so. LOL! ;) I was on a waiting list for mine before I could even purchase it. It took about 3 weeks for me to get the "option to purchase" mail. It took me almost 5 months to get the pedal-board....but well worth it.
 
Tom: So sorry...lol! You being a real tube amp man...I think you'd be impressed by how close this thing really is. I've never seen so many possible tweaks in a unit before. It's a bit overwhelming to be honest and would be overkill for most guitarists. But whew....it's nice to know stuff like this exists.
 
Example, check out this 50 watt plexi I'm working on for my Van Halen tone. When I click on "Amp" in my chain, the options for it appear below it. Here's the pre-amp section and the power amp section. Quite a few interesting tweaks that really make an incredible difference.
 

 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/AxePre.JPG (close up)
 

 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/AxePower.JPG (close up)
 
Presently, the unit sports 186 amps and I have 100 cabs loaded which is pretty impressive. You can literally tone match your amps with specific cabs...it's nuts.
 
One of the cool things about this is how you can process your direct signal. I honestly don't have a problem mic'ing my amps. But I really get the same sound direct as I do mic'd and part of that is due to what I call "room within a room". I've been doing this for years, and have shared it on the forums before.
 
I basically create or use an impulse that simulates that air between the speaker and the mic. Maybe an impulse from a library that is called "mic'd" or something. Something super small that doesn't really decay. Just playing with the right amount of this impulse with some eq on the impulse will take the "direct" sound right out to where you have some life. Then you control the size of it to where it sounds realistic. You can even phase it slightly.
 
From there you put the sound in another room....whether it be a bigger sounding verb or another realistic impulse with a bit more size and you're golden. So close to a mic'd amp, I could use "either or" really. Anyway, Fractal allows for this inside their cab options which makes a HUGE difference. I can't tell the difference between my mic'd cab and what I'm using other than an ever so slight color difference that doesn't sway me either way. This option here is what makes this thing sound so real when you record with it. Turn it off for live though.
 

 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/AxeCabRoom.JPG (close up)
 
This piece is just nuts man. Every effect known to man as well....even an adjustable talk box. Super cool harmonizer too that sounds identical to the Eventide. Anyway, sorry to ramble. I just think think when we check out modeling like what you get in THIS rig....it makes an incredible difference for the.....acceptable maybe? :)
 
-Danny
2014/07/12 19:15:09
Rain
Danny, bro, you could sell ice to an eskimo! Always such a pleasure reading your posts. :)
2014/07/12 21:31:30
michaelhanson
."Danny, bro, you could sell ice to an eskimo! "

......,,,,,In Texas.
2014/07/13 23:57:25
Jeff Evans
What I really get from Danny's post #32 is what you can do with virtual and emulated guitar processing. Once you think of it as being different you now have two ways to record guitars and one of them is almost unlimited in its approach.
 
The great news is that a recording may begin in one format eg dynamic mic in front of guitar cab but can easily enter into the virtual world. And the other way too, coming out of the virtual world and being re-amped etc.. How killer that can sound when done well.
 
Some virtual synths can model their real world equivalents. Some go further and add in more options. Then, as you would expect, more options emerge in terms of sound synthesis. This is when virtual modeling and synthesis can go into far more places than traditional methods cannot go. Trying out things that would have been very difficult if not impossible to do previously.
 
Couple that with some tasty playing and you have a recipe for success.
 
I think when you are working with virtual instruments it must be nice for the guitarist or bass player to get physically involved with the sound they are making. (Standing next to a loud amp!) Maybe our modern virtual guitar processing workflow requires the use of a nice powerful PA to give that sound back, the way a guitarist needs to hear it, even in band situation it should cope. Playing guitar in front of your studio monitors may not be ideal for some. But for those who like the feel and sound of a big PA instead, it might just be the ticket. Setting up the right conditions for recording and tracking guitar parts.
 
2014/07/14 00:33:48
Cactus Music
Funny how one person said he uses Amp Sims because he can't afford a real amp set up, And I don't use Amp sims because I can't afford the rig that would run them without latency. 
The few times I've tried Guitar rig the latency drove me nuts. I can get my system down to around 5 ms but the response is just too slow for me. It's the same with digital drums/ 
 
I'm happy enough being traditional and using my stomp boxes and Small tube amps. I will add some delay or chorus after the fact, but all the simulated overdrive I have tried was pretty bad. As someone said above,, it doesn't interact properly to dynamics.. I'm sure something at the level Danny is using works,, but that's like not gunna happen in my lifetime @ $2,000. 
2014/07/14 02:40:46
Danny Danzi
Cactus Music
I'm happy enough being traditional and using my stomp boxes and Small tube amps. I will add some delay or chorus after the fact, but all the simulated overdrive I have tried was pretty bad. As someone said above,, it doesn't interact properly to dynamics.. I'm sure something at the level Danny is using works,, but that's like not gunna happen in my lifetime @ $2,000. 


 
Trust me brother, that 2k purchase haunted me nearly every day until I paid it off. As I was paying it off and learning how to use it, I kept hoping I had made the right decision. By the time I was close to paying it off, I had a really good grasp on what it was capable of and was floored....so the purchase didn't bother me AS much. However, that price still sucks. :( What sucks even more is most people won't even justify paying for something like that yet I believe they would (if they could) if they could see the big picture. I wasn't too happy at first and thought maybe I made a bad decision. But like anything else, you have to stick with it.
 
As you stick with it and learn all the stuff it can do, you start to realize that 2k for something of this magnitude is actually cheap when you consider all the stuff you get with it as well as what you get out of it. Don't get me wrong, that price sucks no matter who you are...that's for sure. :-/

Jeff Evans
What I really get from Danny's post #32 is what you can do with virtual and emulated guitar processing. Once you think of it as being different you now have two ways to record guitars and one of them is almost unlimited in its approach.
 
The great news is that a recording may begin in one format eg dynamic mic in front of guitar cab but can easily enter into the virtual world. And the other way too, coming out of the virtual world and being re-amped etc.. How killer that can sound when done well.
 
Some virtual synths can model their real world equivalents. Some go further and add in more options. Then, as you would expect, more options emerge in terms of sound synthesis. This is when virtual modeling and synthesis can go into far more places than traditional methods cannot go. Trying out things that would have been very difficult if not impossible to do previously.
 
Couple that with some tasty playing and you have a recipe for success.
 
I think when you are working with virtual instruments it must be nice for the guitarist or bass player to get physically involved with the sound they are making. (Standing next to a loud amp!) Maybe our modern virtual guitar processing workflow requires the use of a nice powerful PA to give that sound back, the way a guitarist needs to hear it, even in band situation it should cope. Playing guitar in front of your studio monitors may not be ideal for some. But for those who like the feel and sound of a big PA instead, it might just be the ticket. Setting up the right conditions for recording and tracking guitar parts.



Exactly Jeff! I totally get what some guys say when they bash on amp sims or say they just don't work right for them. I'm with them there to an extent. I've tried a few that I hated and a few really like. Would I use them exclusively on my album? Probably not, but they make for really good reinforcement tones especially in layering situations. Stuff like the amp sim I helped to develop called Headcase from AcmeBarGig and Guitar Rig 5 really are nice sims in my opinion. Heck, even if we don't call them "amp sims" and just call them "guitar amp plugs" that's fine by me. :) As long as something sounds cool...that's all that matters.
 
But you're right, we DO have loads of options now as well as killer new technology. But that said, some of this stuff just falls way short when you have a nice amp arsenal and compare them. That's when you can really notice. Lots of guys abandoned their amps due to living arrangements, late nights and disturbing family etc. The amp sims were a bit more practical and more forgiving to get sounds out of.
 
BUT...sometimes when you stay away from your real amps and then go back, you notice a difference that has been missing in your tone and sometimes due to amps being so dynamic, your playing. I've always felt (like in Harry Potter where they say the wand chooses the wizard lol) the amp chooses the player. Some guys sound great on one thing where if you or I plug in, it sounds terrible. They plug into my amp, my amp/rig sounds bad to them. They may sound bad on all amp sims. It's tough to find "The One"...and once you do, no amp sim may ever touch it.
 
My reason for posting in this thread wasn't meant to brag about the AxeFx though it may have seemed like that. Seriously speaking, I just wanted to let people know amp sims ARE (in my opinion) as good as real amps if you try something that is really high endy like the AxeFx or a Kemper. I have nothing against plugins or even the PODS out there and know how much time the developers have put into them. I've tried just about every one extensively. I've had to due to working for AcmeBarGig. Part of my job is to compare what we make vs. the competition. So I'm well aware of what these things can do. But in quite a few areas, they still fall short and this is where guitar players are complaining.
 
We have a feel issue with most plugs. Most just do not feel or react like a real amp does. This changes how a guitarist plays. Sort of like you switching back to plastic keys on a keyboard after playing on weighted keys...or playing on weighted for the first time after being used to plastic keys to an extent...but amp vs. sim in the feel department is worse for us. LOL!
 
Another thing is the lack of a buffered input. Amp sims don't have this and it's a VERY important factor that they need. You realistically need a few front-end enhancements BEFORE our sound hits the plug like stomp boxes or some rack stuff to push a plug sim a little. If you don't, you can get loads of gain but your sound drops off and dies because it doesn't sustain correctly.
 
We are real close to this with Headcase with our input boost feature, but it still isn't quite like an amp in terms of "reaction. I still find myself using a Tube Screamer with the gain turned all the way down and the output as high up as possible until I get a little hiss. This drives the amp sim quite well. Add a bit of compression to it after the TS and you're sort of simulating what an amp does with a slightly buffered front end signal BEFORE it actually hits the amp's tone stack or pre-amp section.
 
Then we have the issue of "tubes" not being simulated properly...and just about every amp sim has failed my test in that area. Especially 12AX7 tube simulations. Only 2 amp sims have passed this test for me. Guitar Rig and the Axe Fx II. Just about everyone has nailed the power amp section break-up to some "fairly acceptable" degree but the pre-amp tube sound.....it just doesn't happen for the majority. If guitar players weren't such tone chasers, we'd not worry about this sort of thing. Then again, tone comes from the fingers....but an amp can/does enhance everything we do...so it's easy to see/hear how they can be so effective all across the board. Then again it depends a lot on style too. And then there are mutants out there that can plug into anything and they still sound great. Even though that may be true, they will tell you "something just doesn't feel right" when they play through a sim. We mortals would just love to be able to play like they do and would care less. :)
 
Rain
Danny, bro, you could sell ice to an eskimo! Always such a pleasure reading your posts. :)



LOL! Thanks Rain! You're too kind brother!! Fortunately, I've turned down every sales job I've ever been offered. I'd be too honest to try and sell someone something for the sake of a commission check. Uggh...how do those guys sleep at night? My commission checks would suck so bad man! Then again, if I DID take on a sales job, it would have to be selling a product I believed in with all of my heart. When something is good, I'll push it to the ends of the earth and fight tooth and nail for it. If something is bad, I either will tell it like I've experienced it or not say anything at all. :) It's like POD's...I have this love/hate relationship with them. I never bash them because so many people I admire use them. They just don't work for me other than my bass POD which I love. :)
 
-Danny
2014/07/14 11:31:08
bluzdog
Jeff Evans
What I really get from Danny's post #32 is what you can do with virtual and emulated guitar processing. Once you think of it as being different you now have two ways to record guitars and one of them is almost unlimited in its approach.
 
The great news is that a recording may begin in one format eg dynamic mic in front of guitar cab but can easily enter into the virtual world. And the other way too, coming out of the virtual world and being re-amped etc.. How killer that can sound when done well.
 
Some virtual synths can model their real world equivalents. Some go further and add in more options. Then, as you would expect, more options emerge in terms of sound synthesis. This is when virtual modeling and synthesis can go into far more places than traditional methods cannot go. Trying out things that would have been very difficult if not impossible to do previously.
 
Couple that with some tasty playing and you have a recipe for success.
 
I think when you are working with virtual instruments it must be nice for the guitarist or bass player to get physically involved with the sound they are making. (Standing next to a loud amp!) Maybe our modern virtual guitar processing workflow requires the use of a nice powerful PA to give that sound back, the way a guitarist needs to hear it, even in band situation it should cope. Playing guitar in front of your studio monitors may not be ideal for some. But for those who like the feel and sound of a big PA instead, it might just be the ticket. Setting up the right conditions for recording and tracking guitar parts.
 




I think you nailed it right there. You can have your cake and eat it too. Play through whatever you are comfortable with and mix and mingle after the performance. That said I'm an old tube amp guy; '67 Super Reverb, 70's Champ, Ampeg V-4, Reverborocket, Gibson Scout...... but sometimes in a pinch use Amplitube 3.
 
@ Danny..... I had major buyer's remorse when I bought my '91 Strat Plus from Seattle music. At the time I was playing a LP Custom and a Charvel. I was looking for something different. Man was it different, way different......Fat, flat fretboard, jumbo frets, higher action etc. I hated it for quite some time. Later on I decided to play it for a blues gig and fell in love. Now we're inseperable. I would love to test ride an Axe FX 2.
 
Rocky
2014/07/14 11:43:05
Cactus Music
The deal for me , being almost retired and only a casual worker, is I have to earn the money for music equipment with my music. Gigs are all pass the hat these days and I only tackle one client at a time for studio work. End of the day I'm lucky to have $1,000 per year to spend. My PA system is 20 years old and my next purchase is powered speakers..there goes the $1,000. 
If electric rock was my thing I would be a little more stoked about more effects, But I play Blues or Country/ Oldies Rock , both don't require much more than good overdrive ( Fender Princeton) and a bit of Tremelo ( Mooer Trelicopter) and Delay ( Mooer Echolizer) . 
2014/07/14 15:19:47
sharke
Oh god...my accountant just informed me that she's gotten me off the hook for a $1000 IRS fine I had looming....so already my brain's like "hmm...I guess that means AXE II is a grand instead of two grand, in terms of where I was before financially..."

GOT TO STOP thinking like this! Honestly, I'm going to buy a large piggy bank and use it for gear purchases....NOTHING can be bought until the pig lets me. But knowing me, I'll be feeding it cash straight out of the ATM. I need help!
© 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1

Use My Existing Forum Account

Use My Social Media Account