Cactus Music
I'm happy enough being traditional and using my stomp boxes and Small tube amps. I will add some delay or chorus after the fact, but all the simulated overdrive I have tried was pretty bad. As someone said above,, it doesn't interact properly to dynamics.. I'm sure something at the level Danny is using works,, but that's like not gunna happen in my lifetime @ $2,000.
Trust me brother, that 2k purchase haunted me nearly every day until I paid it off. As I was paying it off and learning how to use it, I kept hoping I had made the right decision. By the time I was close to paying it off, I had a really good grasp on what it was capable of and was floored....so the purchase didn't bother me AS much. However, that price still sucks. :( What sucks even more is most people won't even justify paying for something like that yet I believe they would (if they could) if they could see the big picture. I wasn't too happy at first and thought maybe I made a bad decision. But like anything else, you have to stick with it.
As you stick with it and learn all the stuff it can do, you start to realize that 2k for something of this magnitude is actually cheap when you consider all the stuff you get with it as well as what you get out of it. Don't get me wrong, that price sucks no matter who you are...that's for sure. :-/
Jeff Evans
What I really get from Danny's post #32 is what you can do with virtual and emulated guitar processing. Once you think of it as being different you now have two ways to record guitars and one of them is almost unlimited in its approach.
The great news is that a recording may begin in one format eg dynamic mic in front of guitar cab but can easily enter into the virtual world. And the other way too, coming out of the virtual world and being re-amped etc.. How killer that can sound when done well.
Some virtual synths can model their real world equivalents. Some go further and add in more options. Then, as you would expect, more options emerge in terms of sound synthesis. This is when virtual modeling and synthesis can go into far more places than traditional methods cannot go. Trying out things that would have been very difficult if not impossible to do previously.
Couple that with some tasty playing and you have a recipe for success.
I think when you are working with virtual instruments it must be nice for the guitarist or bass player to get physically involved with the sound they are making. (Standing next to a loud amp!) Maybe our modern virtual guitar processing workflow requires the use of a nice powerful PA to give that sound back, the way a guitarist needs to hear it, even in band situation it should cope. Playing guitar in front of your studio monitors may not be ideal for some. But for those who like the feel and sound of a big PA instead, it might just be the ticket. Setting up the right conditions for recording and tracking guitar parts.
Exactly Jeff! I totally get what some guys say when they bash on amp sims or say they just don't work right for them. I'm with them there to an extent. I've tried a few that I hated and a few really like. Would I use them exclusively on my album? Probably not, but they make for really good reinforcement tones especially in layering situations. Stuff like the amp sim I helped to develop called Headcase from AcmeBarGig and Guitar Rig 5 really are nice sims in my opinion. Heck, even if we don't call them "amp sims" and just call them "guitar amp plugs" that's fine by me. :) As long as something sounds cool...that's all that matters.
But you're right, we DO have loads of options now as well as killer new technology. But that said, some of this stuff just falls way short when you have a nice amp arsenal and compare them. That's when you can really notice. Lots of guys abandoned their amps due to living arrangements, late nights and disturbing family etc. The amp sims were a bit more practical and more forgiving to get sounds out of.
BUT...sometimes when you stay away from your real amps and then go back, you notice a difference that has been missing in your tone and sometimes due to amps being so dynamic, your playing. I've always felt (like in Harry Potter where they say the wand chooses the wizard lol) the amp chooses the player. Some guys sound great on one thing where if you or I plug in, it sounds terrible. They plug into my amp, my amp/rig sounds bad to them. They may sound bad on all amp sims. It's tough to find "The One"...and once you do, no amp sim may ever touch it.
My reason for posting in this thread wasn't meant to brag about the AxeFx though it may have seemed like that. Seriously speaking, I just wanted to let people know amp sims ARE (in my opinion) as good as real amps if you try something that is really high endy like the AxeFx or a Kemper. I have nothing against plugins or even the PODS out there and know how much time the developers have put into them. I've tried just about every one extensively. I've had to due to working for AcmeBarGig. Part of my job is to compare what we make vs. the competition. So I'm well aware of what these things can do. But in quite a few areas, they still fall short and this is where guitar players are complaining.
We have a feel issue with most plugs. Most just do not feel or react like a real amp does. This changes how a guitarist plays. Sort of like you switching back to plastic keys on a keyboard after playing on weighted keys...or playing on weighted for the first time after being used to plastic keys to an extent...but amp vs. sim in the feel department is worse for us. LOL!
Another thing is the lack of a buffered input. Amp sims don't have this and it's a VERY important factor that they need. You realistically need a few front-end enhancements BEFORE our sound hits the plug like stomp boxes or some rack stuff to push a plug sim a little. If you don't, you can get loads of gain but your sound drops off and dies because it doesn't sustain correctly.
We are real close to this with Headcase with our input boost feature, but it still isn't quite like an amp in terms of "reaction. I still find myself using a Tube Screamer with the gain turned all the way down and the output as high up as possible until I get a little hiss. This drives the amp sim quite well. Add a bit of compression to it after the TS and you're sort of simulating what an amp does with a slightly buffered front end signal BEFORE it actually hits the amp's tone stack or pre-amp section.
Then we have the issue of "tubes" not being simulated properly...and just about every amp sim has failed my test in that area. Especially 12AX7 tube simulations. Only 2 amp sims have passed this test for me. Guitar Rig and the Axe Fx II. Just about everyone has nailed the power amp section break-up to some "fairly acceptable" degree but the pre-amp tube sound.....it just doesn't happen for the majority. If guitar players weren't such tone chasers, we'd not worry about this sort of thing. Then again, tone comes from the fingers....but an amp can/does enhance everything we do...so it's easy to see/hear how they can be so effective all across the board. Then again it depends a lot on style too. And then there are mutants out there that can plug into anything and they still sound great. Even though that may be true, they will tell you "something just doesn't feel right" when they play through a sim. We mortals would just love to be able to play like they do and would care less. :)
Rain
Danny, bro, you could sell ice to an eskimo! Always such a pleasure reading your posts. :)
LOL! Thanks Rain! You're too kind brother!! Fortunately, I've turned down every sales job I've ever been offered. I'd be too honest to try and sell someone something for the sake of a commission check. Uggh...how do those guys sleep at night? My commission checks would suck so bad man! Then again, if I DID take on a sales job, it would have to be selling a product I believed in with all of my heart. When something is good, I'll push it to the ends of the earth and fight tooth and nail for it. If something is bad, I either will tell it like I've experienced it or not say anything at all. :) It's like POD's...I have this love/hate relationship with them. I never bash them because so many people I admire use them. They just don't work for me other than my bass POD which I love. :)
-Danny