wanna see the dynamic range of your favorite album?
 
 
look it up here:
 
 
http://dr.loudness-war.info/

TremoJem,

I do the same thing as you. I've found that when mastering tools are applied, it inevitably changes the relationship between the various parts of the mix, so it's necessary to go back and do some tweaking of the levels of individual channels or busses. In other words, there may be an optimum mix, but you don't know what it is until you've done the mastering.

I'm sure that in someone's eyes this will be "wrong", but it's what works for me.

BatsBrew,
 
I am talking about the same thing, except my levels are a bit hotter...but not by much.
 
Of course the master is not even close, as I have been mastering like Vanceen.
 
So...when you say you move this file into Wavelabs, does this mean you bounce the master to a stereo track?
 
And if so, is it 24 bit?
 
You get my point.
 
I really do have to try this on my next project.
 
Vanceen, I too agree, that our workflow is not envied by others...I am just happy to be learning. I am ready for the next step...I guess.

trem,
sounds like you are asking 'mastering' specific questions....
 
that is an entirely different thing.
 
i have a 3rd party software i use (Wavelab) dedicated specifically to mastering.
i use a 3rd party set of Plugins (WAVES) to use for mastering.
 
 
when i am going to master a song, i bounce it to a stereo file, 24 bit, no dither.
it is a 'what you hear is what you get' bounce directly thru the master bus, with all plugins and automation included.
 
then i "EXPORT" that 24 bit wav file out of sonar completely and work in Wavelab.
 
if you are going to try to master inside of Sonar (not my choice method) then i would suggest bouncing your song down to a final mixed stereo file, export that, and bring up a brand new clean 'song' file and import it into that, putting your plugins on the master bus and processing directly thru that, avoiding all the unnecessary processing in your working song. (even the channel strip eq's hog memory)
 

Everybody understands that leaving headroom throughout the process is a good practice, from tracking on through to the final mix. You'll avoid so many potential problems along the way if you do.
 
However, there is a phenomenon that's sometimes referred to as "fader creep". As you mix, you frequently identify an element that's not popping out like it should so you give it 1 or 2 decibels. Later on, you hear something else that's gotten lost in the mix and give it a couple dB. Keep doing that for a few days and before you know it your whole mix has gone up 6 or 8 dB.
 
Sometimes, the only cure for fader creep is to go in and lower every track. It's a hassle, often requiring readjusting compressor thresholds on multiple tracks and busses. Consequently, most are reluctant to do it. I certainly have been, especially on a nearly-done mix that I've invested many hours in. The point of this thread is to offer a justification for undertaking such an effort.
 

I find when you are sending a group of tracks to a buss it is not hard to keep an eye on buss levels.  When you are VU metering there it is easy to get an overall reading on that buss.  You can almost mix with the VU meter itself.  On a drum buss as you bring in the big hitters such as kick and snare then you can get those VU's moving up to -3 dB VU or so.  As you add extra things into that drum buss the final levels will start reaching 0 dB VU.
 
As you solo into a buss and listen to what is just on there, the VU will tell you if your buss is starting to run hot or not.  I might group all those tracks that are feeding that buss and pull them down a dB or two during the process of getting buss mixes correct.  You can fine tune the buss master to keep things on track.  Any slight compression over a buss will create the effect of raising its rms level up slightly and reducing slightly the dynmic range on that buss too.  (usually to good effect)  The ballisitics of the meter changes immediately you insert a compressor over a buss.  You can use it to fine tune your compressor settings. Light compression over some Virtual Instruments is almost essential.
 
Buses then feed the master buss and it is not hard to juggle those buses to get the mix perfect and the main stereo buss ends up at the K ref level too for the entire mix.  I have the real VU's over the main stereo mix at all times right in front of me and that keeps you in check right back at the point of bringing tracks up one by one into their buses.  You have always got your final target level in front of you as you mix.  The virtual VU's are good for the spot positions within your mix.
 
Do this and the whole session drops down to the point of no clip lights on anywhere at any point in your signal flow.  With plug-ins it is easy to VU meter on the way IN and OUT to make sure everything is running at the right level.  It is possible to send too high levels to a buss and then you are struggling to pull things down.  Mixing into a VU is more like you gradually build up the VU level as you bring things in and then to the point where everything is in and it is just hitting its final target level of 0 dB VU. And not swinging wildly over either.

BatsBrew, sorry...I did not mean to get off track.
 
I will definitely change my workflow.
 
I have no choice, but to master in Sonar.
 
I am certainly not at a point in my learning curve where I could justify a stand alone mastering SW Suite.
 
Thanks for all of your insight.

Jeff E., what VU meters are you referring too?
 
This option does not exist in X3e...to my knowledge, but then again I have only scratched the surface of this application.

Oh, are you referring to when an virtual instrument is clipping because the volume in the synth is too high? s o you'd turn the track volume down assuming it was affecting the synth volume?
I can def see that as an assumption... I used to think that was how it worked until I (probably) started really messing with synths and seeing that when I would try to turn everything down, they were still sounding messy... carry on :)

No, the VU meters are not standard.  They are extra plug-ins that you can get.  But they don't cost much though.  A few companies make them.  The Klanghelm meter is pretty good:
 
http://klanghelm.com/VUMT.php
 
The rms or VU meter can take different forms.  eg bar graph displays etc but I like the standard VU needle.  It offers a lot of information in a short space of time.
 
I have encountered soft synths that produce too much volume and the sound can actually leave those VST's almost clipping.  Metering their output level will enable you to fine tune their output to match your system reference level.  Make the VU meter the first effect in the effects bin.
 
Some soft synths have limiter features built in and I usually prefer to switch any of that off and let them send out a full uncompressed or unlimited signal.  By turning the output down to match your system level the VST is now not creating any signal that is close to clipping.  The signal level is right at the source.  Synth sounds vary in level a lot because of the nature of the envelopes etc.. The time to turn the output level right up on a soft synth is when the sound is a very short envelope that does not reach much level and dies quickly. Then you may even need the VST output level at full just to get a K system ref level. A really loud bass sound or brass patch on the other hand might require the VST output level way down to get that same K system ref level coming out. Hardware synths behave the same way wth patches. They vary so much in level.
 
VST Presets can sometimes take over the setting of the output level knob as well.  Changing it will often only work with your current selected preset.  Selecting a new preset will often return the output level to the setting locked in with that preset.  (It is not a bad idea to resave presets used in any production with the right output level setting for that preset and your system)
 
Messy sounding instruments can also mean messy sounding arrangements.  It is good to look at which synths are playing what all the time and seeing how many are playing at once.  Ideas can interweave rather than try to exist all at once. But that is all another story.