DragonBlood

AT
Uh, capture is the most important part.

I should clarify that both recordings were given to me as part of a class where the lesson was to use EQ to make 2 instruments occupying the same frequency play well together. I agree with you 100%. A good recording should lay the foundation for any good song. You have to do your best at every stage of production to make the best song possible.
 

wizard71
High pass is good as stated above. You might have better luck ducking the bass when the kick drum plays, can't see how the other way round would work.

 
Do you think it depends on the song which one you would duck? in this song it seems the bass guitar is 2nd to the lead melody (sorry I'm not good with music terminology yet) and it seems like the kick drum is only backing it up and driving the rhythm of the song. I got it ducked by about 3-6db when the bass guitar plays. This song has a real 1950s vibe to it.

Textbook, use an analyzer. Drop the area in the bass the kick occupies, drop the area in the kick the bass occupies. You don't really need a ducker if you've got the eq sorted. In 3 words "make a hole". :)

I'll get shot for this Dragon, but here's my take for what it's worth.
 
First off, you have to identify what "distorted and dirty" means. This to me (in recording terms) doesn't tell *me* to search for a low end problem. It tells me to look deeper into how the instrument(s) may have been tracked and a possible re-track may be in order. Low end frequency masking between kick and bass guitar are different than distorted and dirty. I say the above because you would treat the instruments differently.
 
If your situation is low end frequency masking, forget about side-chaining. Do you want to put a band-aide on something or do you want to learn how to really engineer? As batsbrew mentioned (listen to his stuff, it speaks for itself) Bonham didn't need any side-chaining, and he's right.
 
That is not a bust on anyone telling you to side-chain and that is not a bust on the technique. What I'm saying is remedy the problem and learn how to fix it the right way. You will get much better results in doing so, trust me. The last thing you want is for your bass or kick to drop out because they take turns due to side-chaining. I think this technique used in this manner is absolute crap. It fixes nothing. It puts a band-aide on a problem and also keeps an instrument out of the mix in sections.
 
To fix the problem, I'll give you two choices that will work really well. 
 
1. decide whether your kick will be the low end meat or will it have more of a beater attack. If the kick will have low end meat, your bass guitar needs to be a bit more percussive and have less of that nice low end. If the kick will have more beater attack then your bass can have more low end in it. See, we are not allowing these instruments to share similar frequencies.
 
2. The other fix is, if say you boost 60 Hz to make your kick drum have a little low end oomph to it, you would NOT boost that same frequency on your bass. You'd cut a bit of that frequency out of the bass if it had any in there, and boost something else like say 80-90 Hz to give the bass a little low end push to it. You could then remove a little 80-90 Hz in the kick so these guys are definitely out of each others way. The key to stop frequency masking is to never boost the same stuff. When you boost one, you cut that one in the other instrument.
 
Now I'm just giving you rough ideas on frequencies here. Using them may be a nightmare for you and I will tell you why it's not always good to listen to people throwing out frequencies to you. They have no idea what your instruments sound like. I can't tell you to boost or cut 100 Hz if by chance your instrument doesn't have enough of that frequency in it to remove it, understand? I can't make you boost 90 Hz if your bass already has an over-abundant amount of 90 Hz in it already. So starting points are completely useless due to your instruments not being analyzed for any of us to come to that conclusion.
 
Once I know what I'm up against in a mix, I listen to the kick drum and try to hone in on where the best low end push for it would be. If it already has quite a bit of push to it, I'm then searching for where I want to REMOVE the low end via high pass. Depending on how much low is present will determine whether I use a high pass or a shelf. Sometimes things are so bassy, I have to remove a lot of bass frequencies. A shelf can help in that area. Other times, if you can hone in on the frequency giving you problems, you can literally work on THAT frequency and curb it. These are the decisions you have to think about in this field.
 
Other times, all the stuff I told you above about high passing and shelving to remove bass....we may be using to enhance low end. One of the greatest eq's ever made for high passing is the Sonitus EQ that comes with Sonar. That eq will allow you to high pass and control the amount of high passing using the Q control. Most eq's just high pass and don't give you that option. Having it makes a great difference in my opinion.
 
So most of the stuff you would be dealing with here, will depend on your instruments that you choose to record. The sound selection you choose followed by the actual recording is the most important part of your process here. If you are spending hours trying to polish a turd, it's time to re-record the instrument. That's another important factor in this field....knowing when something recorded is worth keeping.
 
Too many guys live by "let's fix it in the mix." When they see how many hours, days, weeks it may take to try to make something work, they'll one day get a clue that it's best to just re-print the tracks that may be lacking. That said, sometimes we DO record really great instruments and we just may not know how to make them sound good within a mix. This is common too!
 
Sometimes you may have to make something that sounds great by itself, sound not so great when it is in a mix with other instrumentation. Unfortunately, that is just the nature of this business and it goes with the territory. Speaking of "great by itself".....people really mess up their mixes doing this. Try as hard as you can not to solo something up to eq it by itself. This will drive you crazy until you have enough years under your belt to be able to know how to do it right. Honest when I tell you, it takes quite a while before you can get it down. But the reason you might not want to do this is because it's best to mix the entire song instead of mixing each instrument as an entity. When you do each one by itself then throw the whole mix up, you wonder why it sounds bad. The instruments all need to work as a team, they can't all be all-stars individually. :)
 
Anyway, I hope some of this stuff helps you. Frequency masking is a very common issue, so don't get too frustrated. Just keep experimenting and remember not to boost like-frequencies....high pass and hone in, and learn compression as it walks hand and hand with eq and will help you keep your instruments in check after you've drawn out the right eq curve. Best of luck! :)
-Danny

Danny,
 
Completely agree and on most recordings with bass guitar, you can capture the tone of the bass to complement the kick, or vice versa. This isn't always possible, and not all of us record Led Zeppelin-style rock and roll.
 
Now days, I scoop out room for the kick when I can, unless it takes too much away from the bass. Particularly with synth bass, I find that deep kicks will lose a lot of punch. Instead of compressing, I am using dynamic EQ to make space only when needed. It isn't something automatically done on every tune.
 
All the best,
Dan
 

VERY HIGH Q VALUES
 
that is key
 
and knowing exactly where they belong

i will use tilting EQ when necessary..
i've received bass tracks that were just completely overdone....
too much low everything...
and the tilt works great.
 
 

Bass can sometimes be the most difficult to mix. Especially if you're trying to make a sub base heavy mix i.e. Hip Hop ,that sits well in other systems.
 
The frequencies need to fit typical systems without overloading but be present on systems designed to give that extra boom in the 30hz range. In my experience the 50hz range can be one of the most difficult to listen and "slide" the EQ to get the best results or detail.We don't tell detail as well at the lower frequencies.
 
I usually listen and move my EQ bands at the same time, but there are times when it really helps to have some kind of frequency analyst and although the total mix is important I like to listen to bass guitar and drums soloed to get in the ball park. Sometimes listening and sliding those frequencies are all it takes hear the best detail and make room for both. Like Danny says, cutting where necessary as well as moving the peaks is important. That way you have basically made one instrument out of two and combined them in a mutual way. A frequency analyst can help a lot in looking at where everything is showing up.
 
In some mixes the bass is all over the place in range and has a more acoustic element to it. Picking the right combinations of sounds can help a lot at the beginning stages. If the bass jumps all around and into the higher mids ,then a bass with higher characteristics fits better IMO. A low boomy bass in that situation is asking for trouble. Since the bass is generally more sustained than the kick drum, I usually look at it as a potential cause for trouble first.
 
Many drum programs allow for tuning of a drum in the GUI. This might be another option to get the best fit. Try tuning the bass drum to a place where it fits better....and one other thing comes to mind....levels...working the gain structure in balance with the rest of the mix can help to get rid of that mud.
 

dcumpian
Danny,
 
Completely agree and on most recordings with bass guitar, you can capture the tone of the bass to complement the kick, or vice versa. This isn't always possible, and not all of us record Led Zeppelin-style rock and roll.
 
Now days, I scoop out room for the kick when I can, unless it takes too much away from the bass. Particularly with synth bass, I find that deep kicks will lose a lot of punch. Instead of compressing, I am using dynamic EQ to make space only when needed. It isn't something automatically done on every tune.
 
All the best,
Dan
 

Dan,
 
I totally understand you too. Again, I didn't mean any disrespect to you or anyone in favor of side-chaining. My point with the Zep thing was...(other than agreeing with bats) there have been monstrous arrangements with massive kick and bass that didn't have side-chaining going on that sounded fantastic. Part of that has to do with how good the instrument prints were to begin with as well as the ears and know-how of the engineers behind the wheel.
 
My point is, even if we don't have the resources to record stuff like that or we're not playing that sort of style, technology has come such a long way that there should be no reason why someone has to be stuck polishing a turd or attempting to use a technique that masks problems with bad instrumentation. OR, the fact that someone simply may not know what or how to listen to or control bass frequencies. As you know, handling that bass stuff is an art form as well as a monitor/environment sort of thing. It sure has been for me over the years. :) Having a decent room with tuned monitors makes a HUGE difference too, so there are quite a few things to consider especially when someone voices that they are new or learning. :) 
 
If I can put my teacher's hat on for a second, I personally see no reason to resort to side-chaining because it's not helping a person that is asking how to clean up low end. SC'ing is not cleaning up low end at all nor is it remedying a possible problem if one constantly exists with a new engineer. I teach my students how to handle the issues before we move on to techniques like SC.
 
That said, I can totally understand doing this sort of thing with synth bass or even dance/club stuff. The fidelity of a bass instrument is meaningless in that style other than to rumble with a "boom" or "ooom" sound. It's ok if it distorts slightly....it's ok if it rattles 35 Hz a bit too much.
 
The OP mentioned his song having a 50's sound to it, so it's safe to say he's not doing rock, metal, dance, rap, trance or hip hop. LOL! I've never felt the quality of the low end instruments they use were really important nor does a person really notice if there is a trade-off between a synth, a bass drop or a kick drum in those styles of music. I mean seriously, have you ever thought "oh wow, listen to the incredible tonality of that bass drop, that synth bass or that 808 kick!" Hahaha! They either boom, oom, drop and rattle your bile ducts or they don't. :) There's no real "quality" in my opinion like when we listen to a killer bass guitar sound or a really good kick drum that has a personality that may have lived for decades. So again, though SC can be a useful technique in certain circumstances, it doesn't really remedy a low end problem. It sort of puts a band-aide on it and well...if the person doing it doesn't do it right, it can really mess up a mix....especially if they are new or still learning.
 
To me, it's just better to isolate the source of the problem and fix it if and when possible. It's sort of like learning how to fix a pipe. Plumbers putty will get you through....sort of....but doing it right fixes the problem just about indefinitely. :)
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi
Anyway, I hope some of this stuff helps you. Frequency masking is a very common issue, so don't get too frustrated. Just keep experimenting and remember not to boost like-frequencies....high pass and hone in, and learn compression as it walks hand and hand with eq and will help you keep your instruments in check after you've drawn out the right eq curve. Best of luck! :)
-Danny

Danny I really want to thank you for taking the time to drop knowledge and give great advice on solving this problem. I was wondering what I was doing wrong when I was boosting and cutting.
 
So essentially I have to make "complimentary EQ curves" (that's what my instructor said but he didnt go too deep into detail)
I will definitely experiment with some of the techniques you talk about when I get more time. I really liked the separation sidechaining provided, but the kick does mellow out on the bass playing.
 
So I just wanted to say thank you.
 
And thanks everyone for helping. I appreciate it.

DragonBlood

Danny Danzi
Anyway, I hope some of this stuff helps you. Frequency masking is a very common issue, so don't get too frustrated. Just keep experimenting and remember not to boost like-frequencies....high pass and hone in, and learn compression as it walks hand and hand with eq and will help you keep your instruments in check after you've drawn out the right eq curve. Best of luck! :)
-Danny

Danny I really want to thank you for taking the time to drop knowledge and give great advice on solving this problem. I was wondering what I was doing wrong when I was boosting and cutting.
 
So essentially I have to make "complimentary EQ curves" (that's what my instructor said but he didnt go too deep into detail)
I will definitely experiment with some of the techniques you talk about when I get more time. I really liked the separation sidechaining provided, but the kick does mellow out on the bass playing.
 
So I just wanted to say thank you.
 
And thanks everyone for helping. I appreciate it.

You're very welcome. Yeah if you start pushing up a fader to hear a kick...then push up the fader to hear the bass, and this keeps on happening....the fix is to carve it or like I said originally....choose if your kick will have a boom to it or more of a beater attack. This allows you to choose the bass guitar that will not walk on top of the kick.
 
Boomy kick, you choose a bass with a bit more bass clack/high end presence at anywhere from 1k to 3k.
 
Beater type kick sound with less boom, you can choose a bass guitar with the boom and allow it to rule the roost in the lower frequencies.
 
Just remember, anyone throwing specific frequencies at you is not helping if they have not heard your particular sounds. They mean well, but what works for one will not always work for another. I had a student that came to me that would always high pass and low pass at the same places for everything while always cutting and boosting certain frequencies. So I challenged him and gave him instrumentation to mix that didn't have those frequencies in them to begin with. He was like a fish out of water. See, it becomes a matter of "ok, this is my sound...this is what I have in my sound, this is what I'm up against."
 
If a guy uses the same sound all the time, sure, he can tell you what he cuts and boosts as well as where he high passes and low passes. That doesn't tell you anything about YOUR sounds. This is why I've always hated books and videos that people sell. They work with THEIR sounds, not yours. It makes me sick really. (which is what made me create my online video lessons for stuff like that) A student can't learn a thing watching or listening to an engineer tell them how to control sounds that the student doesn't have or isn't creating. But you sure can learn ten-fold when YOUR sounds are on the chopping block.
 
That said, if you post some stuff up for people to hear to where they give you feedback, that's totally different. But anyone going into it blindly....exactly like Russian Roulette really.
 
The main things you want to pound into your head for this stuff would be the following:
 
1. Have decent monitors with a sub, some room correction and have your monitors corrected to be as flat as possible. This is a complete game changer. You can't make the right calls if what you are hearing isn't really what you're hearing due to room inconsistencies or the fact that your monitors are coloring/not coloring frequencies that they should or shouldn't be.
 
2. Learn how to record your sounds to the best of your ability with the gear you have. If you can afford to update your gear, be careful as sometimes the cheaper stuff works just as well. But in other areas, you really do get what you pay for in this field. That said, what you record will always be the most important thing here. Garbage in, garbage out which in reality, can force you to spend several hours polishing a turd. This happens all too often with today's home recordists. Because they don't really know what constitutes a good sound, they will record something and mess with it for days, weeks, or months only to completely hate what they have done. Sound identification can be taught and learned. Trial and error on stuff like this or waiting to gain experience will work too...but it's a slow process that can easily turn you away from this field.
 
3. Learn frequency language. Each frequency is like a syllable in the English language. Learn to identify what they sound like as well as when you are in need of certain ones...and may have to remove others. This isn't just meant for low end. Mid range congestion is another bad seed. Too many warm mids equals a mud pie of disappearing focal instruments as most of the lead instruments that will have cameo appearances....will more than likely have a nice dose of mids to make them sound attractive and less harsh while they are in the forefront. High end is another killer. Low passing is your friend when something hisses like a snake.
 
4. Beware of people that talk the talk that don't explain or walk the walk. I can't tell you how bad this can deter your progress. We have so much information on the net, it's hard to decide what is right and what isn't. My rule of thumb (and I say this to all my students) if you do not like the quality of my recordings, don't let me teach you and don't listen to what I say. This is a field where the best example is a SOUND example. If we were guitarists or pianists, would we want to take lessons from someone that talks, or someone that walks? I'd like a happy medium of both, but if I can be honest....I'll listen to the person that makes me green with envy on how they play more so than any theory I could learn from someone. I got a friend that knows 0 theory...but whew, he's one of the most ferocious Chet Atkins type players I've ever heard. Quick example...
 
I once had a teacher that knew all the theory in the world. Great guy, absolutely horrible as a player. I could smoke this dude on guitar in my 5th year of playing in quite a few things especially mechanics and lead guitar stuff. This isn't a guy I'd want to learn from today. He'd show me theory and scales, but never showed me how to use the stuff. He wasn't into the rock thing either which was a bit of a downer for me as that was what I wanted/needed to learn. I needed a teacher that could play and execute in a style I enjoyed while being shown examples on how to use the theory I was taught. When I teach something today whether it be guitar or recording, I always try to share 2 or more examples to get the point across.
 
The same for recording. Someone that tells you to do something without trying to explain the concept may mean well, but they aren't really helping. There are several windbags like me on forums. We can only go so far until someone actually listens to what we've produced over what we've spewed out. LOL! If the productions make you cringe, those are not the guys you want to listen to. In this field we lead by example or we really don't lead at all in my opinion. Quite a few like to see their name in lights "for the sake of". YOU have to decide whether they deserve that recognition or not. It truly is important to weed out information that is misleading that could send you on a wild goose chase.
 
These are the things I'd concentrate on, Dragon. Honest when I tell you they will make an incredible difference all across the board. Each of the things I mentioned above walks hand in hand. All are equally important no matter what anyone tells you. I'd also go as far as to say I'd bet anyone all that I own that if the above 4 things are altered, fixed, or taken into consideration, their mixes change drastically for the better almost over-night. Good luck and I'm glad some of this stuff was helpful to you. :)
 
-Danny

Good to see you back Danny!!!