SteveStrummerUK


My apologies if I've crossed the line (again).
 
I just don't like the idea that I should be told how to think.
 
I'm perfectly happy for religious people to believe what they want. But I don't want what they believe to have any influence whatsoever on the laws I have to obey, or to have their particular versions of biology and history taught as facts to my kids at school.
 
Why does this have to be so hard a principle to accept?
 
My kids can be taught morals, good social skills and a sense of what's right and wrong by me and their mum. And I'd hope that they have these ideals reinforced and expanded upon in a secular education system, while all the time they are learning science and history that is based on years of accumulated and accepted knowledge.
 
This whole "science in the classroom/decades of misinformation/indoctrination" thing (I'm sorry, but if this wasn't so ridiculous and sad it would be laughable) does make me wonder though - what do you believe is 'real'. For example, do you belive that there are trillions of bacteria living symbiotically in your gut? You've probably never seen them and I'm pretty certain they don't get a mention in the good book. So if you do believe they are there, then why do you believe this? Do you believe that matter is made up of  atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks and any number of other sub-atomic particles? I can guarantee that you've never seen these things in isolation (nobody has ever seen them directly) and I can be sure that they don't get a mention in the bible. So if you believe this, why do you believe it? How about the planets and the stars, the nebulae and the galaxies. You get my point.
 
And I'm sorry, but I just don't get the 'prayers for the victims' families' thing in this thread. Although I have read a considerable amount about religion over the years, I must still be incredibly naive. You see, it is my view when one prays for a certain event or an outcome, they must be convinced that there is a chance that their deity of choice will answer that prayer. In other words, that their god will somehow act or intervene, even if only in a very small way, in the 'normal' day to day running of life on this planet. Surely, I would argue, if you don't expect an intervention, then prayer is a waste of time? Well, so far so good, but what I cannot grasp for the life of me is why an intervening and loving god, who sees and hears everything, doesn't do something before an atrocity like the one we are discussing? Or why don't we pray for all these poor children to be brought back to life? The devout are convinced that this happened on a number of occasions around the time the bible was written.
 
In the context of the universe as a whole, the human race inhabits an almost infinitessimally small part of it. And we've been around for an insignificantly short amount of time since it started. But we are a selfish, self-important and narcissistic species. We'd like to believe that we are so special that the whole purpose of everything we see in this mindboggling enormous universe was created for the sole purpose of 'testing' our suitablility to 'live' somewhere nice after we die. Really?
 
As I say, that's fine with me if you want to think that. But please don't presume to tell me that I have to.
 
 
 
 
 
 

I understand this point of view totally.  I also understand the principle that was outlined by a fine chap some 2000 years ago describing them pharisees of being what was later translated as 'being like a dog in a manger'. (They don't eat of the grain, nor do they let anything else)
 
Prayer isn't for me based on your simplistic view of what prayer is.  I'm not asking for a diety to intervene in the stupid mess we (not a diety) collectively usually get ourselves into.

Prayer works for me on a similar basis to TV if you like simple scientific attribute put to what goes on, you transimit an invisible vibe into the ether and it's recieved by anyone suitably equipped to pick it up in this case anyone at all!  You don't need to hire a dish or a setup box or purchase a subscription.  It's simply wishing someone well from one human heart to another.  Why would anyone have issue with that idea?
 
Expectation of what if any outcome of any of that should be is what cause problems, I pray in circumstances like this because there is little comfort to be had over being completely powerless over it when there is some little moment of time I can set aside to think about the victims I'm going to do it regardless of the idea that someone might be telling me at every available opportunity it is pure phooey.  What is the alternative, turn on the TV, listen to the endless debate and cant about it whilst watching the repeated footage on an endless loop? 
 
Scriptures and science have very much in common the biggest principle is the one of cause and effect, what we do and say to each other has an influence, when we observe something physics will tell you it changes merely on account of the fact it is being observed.  Watch, listen, observe, express but do not judge the whole thing is far bigger than all of us all disciplines of sprituality and science will tell you that because it most certainly is! 
 
Atheist to preacher we are all capable of expressing and sharing love, if you call it a silent moment of reflection or a prayer what difference should that make to anyone else.  If it is done as a regular practise to keep your mind from thinking about yourself all the time, certainly for me that is a good excercise.
 
I don't know if any prayer I make has a tangible positive effect or not but that is where blind faith comes in, on occasions like this there is little else I can do from 6000 miles away and just believing it might do some good somewhere is a great comfort.  Of course I can only speak for me.
To my mind everyone on the planet is a spirit, regardless of what belief they adopt, there are as many athiests that work for humanity as there are those of religion that act for pure self-serving gains and vice versa as well as everything in between.
 
 
Among my most precious of core beliefs is live and let live, believe it or not! 

Lots of interest discussion going on above.  I will only add (without taking sides), that people should expect an opposite response whenever they state that their belief is the only "right" one since it obviously implies that everyone who doesn't share it is wrong.  This applies to whatever they believe in!

Only humans deal in black and white, everything in nature is a shade of grey...

Jonbouy

SteveStrummerUK


My apologies if I've crossed the line (again).
 
I just don't like the idea that I should be told how to think.
 
I'm perfectly happy for religious people to believe what they want. But I don't want what they believe to have any influence whatsoever on the laws I have to obey, or to have their particular versions of biology and history taught as facts to my kids at school.
 
Why does this have to be so hard a principle to accept?
 
My kids can be taught morals, good social skills and a sense of what's right and wrong by me and their mum. And I'd hope that they have these ideals reinforced and expanded upon in a secular education system, while all the time they are learning science and history that is based on years of accumulated and accepted knowledge.
 
This whole "science in the classroom/decades of misinformation/indoctrination" thing (I'm sorry, but if this wasn't so ridiculous and sad it would be laughable) does make me wonder though - what do you believe is 'real'. For example, do you belive that there are trillions of bacteria living symbiotically in your gut? You've probably never seen them and I'm pretty certain they don't get a mention in the good book. So if you do believe they are there, then why do you believe this? Do you believe that matter is made up of  atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks and any number of other sub-atomic particles? I can guarantee that you've never seen these things in isolation (nobody has ever seen them directly) and I can be sure that they don't get a mention in the bible. So if you believe this, why do you believe it? How about the planets and the stars, the nebulae and the galaxies. You get my point.
 
And I'm sorry, but I just don't get the 'prayers for the victims' families' thing in this thread. Although I have read a considerable amount about religion over the years, I must still be incredibly naive. You see, it is my view when one prays for a certain event or an outcome, they must be convinced that there is a chance that their deity of choice will answer that prayer. In other words, that their god will somehow act or intervene, even if only in a very small way, in the 'normal' day to day running of life on this planet. Surely, I would argue, if you don't expect an intervention, then prayer is a waste of time? Well, so far so good, but what I cannot grasp for the life of me is why an intervening and loving god, who sees and hears everything, doesn't do something before an atrocity like the one we are discussing? Or why don't we pray for all these poor children to be brought back to life? The devout are convinced that this happened on a number of occasions around the time the bible was written.
 
In the context of the universe as a whole, the human race inhabits an almost infinitessimally small part of it. And we've been around for an insignificantly short amount of time since it started. But we are a selfish, self-important and narcissistic species. We'd like to believe that we are so special that the whole purpose of everything we see in this mindboggling enormous universe was created for the sole purpose of 'testing' our suitablility to 'live' somewhere nice after we die. Really?
 
As I say, that's fine with me if you want to think that. But please don't presume to tell me that I have to.
 
 
 
 
 
 

I understand this point of view totally.  I also understand the principle that was outlined by a fine chap some 2000 years ago describing them pharisees of being what was later translated as 'being like a dog in a manger'. (They don't eat of the grain, nor do they let anything else)
 
Prayer isn't for me based on your simplistic view of what prayer is.  I'm not asking for a diety to intervene in the stupid mess we (not a diety) collectively usually get ourselves into.

Prayer works for me on a similar basis to TV if you like simple scientific attribute put to what goes on, you transimit an invisible vibe into the ether and it's recieved by anyone suitably equipped to pick it up in this case anyone at all!  You don't need to hire a dish or a setup box or purchase a subscription.  It's simply wishing someone well from one human heart to another.  Why would anyone have issue with that idea?
 
Expectation of what if any outcome of any of that should be is what cause problems, I pray in circumstances like this because there is little comfort to be had over being completely powerless over it when there is some little moment of time I can set aside to think about the victims I'm going to do it regardless of the idea that someone might be telling me at every available opportunity it is pure phooey.
 
Scriptures and science have very much in common the biggest principle is the one of cause and effect, what we do and say to each other has an influence, when we observe something physics will tell you it changes merely on account of the fact it is being observed.  Watch, listen, observe, express but do not judge the whole thing is far bigger than all of us all disciplines of sprituality and science will tell you that because it most certainly is! 
 
Atheist to preacher we are all capable of expressing and sharing love, if you call it a silent moment of reflection or a prayer what difference should that make to anyone else.  If it is done as a regular practise to keep your mind from thinking about yourself all the time, certainly for me that is a good excercise.
 
I don't know if any prayer I make has a tangible positive effect or not but that is where blind faith comes in, on occasions like this there is little else I can do from 6000 miles away and just believing it might do some good somewhere is a great comfort.  Of course I can only speak for me.
To my mind everyone on the planet is a spirit, regardless of what belief they adopt, there are as many athiests that work for humanity as there are those of religion that act for pure self-serving gains and vice versa as well as everything in between.
 
 
Among my most precious of core beliefs is live and let live, believe it or not! 

 
I wish every religious person on this earth shared your ethos Jon.
 
As I said, I'm very naive on certain matters because I just don't 'get' it. And maybe you have to be a believer to understand these things fully.
 
But believe it or not, I have tried to learn. In the past I have read vast tracts of the Old Testament and nobody will ever convince me that the God of that Bible is a loving and caring God. He always struck me as quite the spiteful, veangeful, jealous and murderous sort.
 
As I believe I've said to you before, I have no fixed views either way on whether there is 'someone up there' looking out for us or not. But I'm more certain than ever that if such a 'deity' exists, it's definitely not the God of the Bible, the Torah and the Qur'an.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

You should read the brothers Karamazov Strummy

was this school massacre carried out by a religious fanatic in the name of god was it- if it wasn't what are we arguing about :)


BTW Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ who was "New" Testament

Although it is too early to know about the shootings in CT and OR...

One common thread in recent similar killings is the shooter was on meds of some sort.  Often those meds, while leveling a person out, also decreases the ability to tell what is right from wrong.  That is not to say meds are always bad - there are many circumstances when they are very necessary. 

Still "take a pill" seems the easy quick solution while really dealing with underlying issues is often not easy, and takes time.

There is also another side to consider, one that I realize many will not agree with, or even consider as being real (and it is not my wish to insist or argue a point), and that is the realm of the demonic ("The Screwtape Letters" by C. S. Lewis is an excellent read if interested).

I'm reminded of the story 'The Great Brain' in which a Jewish man literally starves to death in a morman and Christian community in Utah in the 1800s. The lesson to the boys is that everyone failed the man. That it was everyone's fault that he starved.

I feel that way. I feel at fault.

craigb


Lots of interest discussion going on above.  I will only add (without taking sides), that people should expect an opposite response whenever they state that their belief is the only "right" one since it obviously implies that everyone who doesn't share it is wrong.  This applies to whatever they believe in!

Only humans deal in black and white, everything in nature is a shade of grey...

That's part of my issue w/ these things. 


I used to write procedures for very simple things (how to submit vacation requests for example). 4 steps, bullet points.
Yet no matter how simple, concise and fool-proof these were, there was always a surprising percentage of people either doing the exact opposite, doing it 2/3 right, or calling me back for clarification. Even those familiar w/ the system who'd worked there for years. I'd dare say 40%. And these folks were all relatively well-educated and used to dealing w/ abstract concepts. 

Now, imagine if I'd hand them out something written in such a manner that half of them would believe that this was literal and the other half thought it was poetic. Others would think that points number 1 and 3 can be neglected, whereas someone else would think that all 4 points should be strictly observed and others would regard the whole thing as just an example which can be re-interpreted.

And now, imagine that there were many of us writing similar procedures for the same thing and some employees took it upon themselves to interpret that for the masses. You trust me to be right but he trusts her and she trusts that other guy... Chaos.

Just look at how lawyers can distort and re-interpret laws and amendments. Even the most thorough set of the most basic instructions about the most down to earth things will always be subject to debate and disagreement.

So if we're trying to agree on something, and we can't even do that w/ the clearest set of instructions, there's just no hope. I think our best option would be to focus on the lowest common denominator. And some are as close as we can get to universal, regardless of one's religion, starting w/ the golden rule. 

Ultimately, as an atheist, my one hope is that we could find common grounds, regardless of their beliefs and build on that. 

I mean, whether you are a Jehovah's Witness or Jew or an Hindu or an atheist, if you see your neighbor's home on fire, 99% percent of the chances are that you'll call the firehouse. However we interpret it individually afterwards is a matter of personal faith or opinion. You may insist that it's because God (the one you chose or saw whatever evidences of being the true one) lives in all of us, even atheist, for the Hindu it'll be something else, etc -  that's after the fact and only a personal belief. 

What matters is that we agree to call the firehouse, not why we do it. Empathy.

@Strummy.
 
I consider you a human being of enormously generous spirit.  Don't sweat the technicalities.
No one on Earth has a direct line to what is actually going on, I'm pretty sure by now we ain't meant to.
 
Earnestness, honesty, integrity and a fantastic sense of humour, if those things that you have in abundance ain't pure spiritual qualities/gifts then I reckon we're all up the Swanee.
 
Ours is just to make the best of this wild ride while we're here.
 
As John Lennon once said:  Whatever gets you through the night, is alright.

Edit = irrelevant to the fact that many have needlessly died, never mind

@Rain - Good stuff there!