I also would like to point out that it saddens and frightens me to watch our big brother to the south become so polarized and filled with hate. Ya'll need to start working together for common solutions to these problems. I wish we could help you out more but our current regime is heading down the same path as well.

I truly am terrified of what the future holds.

What the future holds is likely not good...

When one can't even hold civil discussions with those one tends to not agree with...

It does seem like the "cliff" is coming, and instead of trying to use the brakes, the "powers that be" are floorboarding the gas pedal.

Yup. Although I am extremely passionate about my views and beliefs I would rather engage in productive and open discourse to try to persuade those who differ in opinions into seeing my logic and learn as much as I can from their perspective to try and find common ground.

These days American politics isn't even a fistfight anymore. It's an all out war and the biggest victims are the people the leaders are supposedly there to serve. It is sickening. It is also seeping into my own country and that makes me very upset and frightened. Everything the US does has a profound effect on the entire world. I wish that influence could be shifted back to being a positive force again and I hope that your country can mend itself before it's too late. Perhaps it is already too late. I feel deep sadness for your nation.

Don't get too worried.

For the people actually involved in governance and public policy, most of the rhetoric is just posturing for position. 

In many areas there is general agreement behind the scenes. But for problems requiring broad sacrifice on the part of the general public, it's impossible for either side to resist exploiting any call for sacrifice for political purposes. Which means neither side will risk discussing actual solutions openly.

Since the public is too busy and thus largely ignorant of all the details, and the media tends to feed everyone "talking points" and "debate" (controversy gains viewers/listeners!) rather than any kind of independent balanced analysis, everyone gets away with posturing. And in many cases the public is in on the game and plays along because they see it as in their best interests to promote "their side". 

But most public policy decisions are a matter of where to draw the lines. And despite the ridiculous rhetoric and the efforts of the media to engage the public by pushing their emotional buttons, moving the line a little in one direction or the other on any issue will not generally result in the end of the world (at least not for the overwhelming majority of people who don't happen to be caught between the lines on any particular issue).

The reality is that in any important negotiation things don't get done until the very last second - after each side feels they have achieved the best deal they can possibly get.

oof... Yeah the media is brutal. It all started getting ultra crazy when certain "news" organization who shall remain nameless managed to get the laws changed so that outright lies could be reported as fact instead of being put into editorial/opinion pieces. 

That to me is just horrible. Then it happened up here a few years ago. Our Prime Minister filled the CRTC which is the Canuck version of the FCC with his cronies and folks friendly with the media moguls (a lot of them actually worked for those companies). We had strict laws forbidding intentional misinformation and they were stripped. Now we are experiencing a rapid decline in journalistic quality.

What ends up happening is the guys who spew half truths and outright lies to get people emotional start getting all the ratings and the other legit news orgs have to follow suit or sink. It's another example of unscrupulous business practices of one entity dragging everyone else down with them. Now you have to have a high powered BS detector to even get an inkling as to what is really going on in the world.

Hopefully things start going back to sane place again and this was just a nasty phase in history. Sometimes things need to get really screwed up before humanity learns from their mistakes and moves the species forward.

Cheers, guys. Sorry for the rantiness. Guess I'm a little jazzed up today.

I said up above that capitalism in not perfect. In any free society there are people who will look for and exploit all available loopholes. And that applies to BOTH sides.... management and labor.... people vs govt.... you name it. But that is the price we pay for freedom. The opposite is to have govt micromanage every detail of business and life. 

An interesting comment was made....  "I don't hate rich people. I don't want to stifle people's ability to run their businesses. I don't want take an unfair portion of hardworking business owners profits. What I want to see is responsible business and government working together to build up society. Not tear it down like it is now."

    As a business owner I don't want you or any one to take ANY of my profit ...not  one thin dime... you didn't earn it and are therefore NOT entitled to any of the fruits of my labor and risk.......BUT.... govt has the power to confiscate and steal my profit.  I don't consider the taking of ANY money from a business which earned it, to be fair to that business, no matter how small the amount or percentage, or the reason, no matter how noble it claims to be.   

The other night, I saw a series on History channel about the innovators and business builders in this country that helped to build it. Edison and Tesla was an interesting one as was Westinghouse and Morgan. These men built companies from scratch eventually employing thousands, and not one bit of government assistance went into it.... actually it was the other way around... Morgan was able to lend to the govt to help it out..... but it was all from the point of capitalism and making a profit. Edison & Tesla invented.... competing against each other. Business tactics were used and by their backers.... risks were taken and some won, some lost. 

Capitalists took that risk.... want to see what happens when govt gets into business?  Look at Solyndra, and dozens of other similar companies.... look at how efficiently they run the postal system...... (not) .....  govt has a purpose, but it is not to run businesses and make decisions for business.

I'm well aware of the socialism in this country today...I do not need a lesson on that topic. It is the primary reason Europe is in financial trouble and us too.  You must have more people producing and unfortunately in a place where people don't have to work to get support, human nature chooses to set back and let someone else do it. Read about Plymouth. The Pilgrims nearly starved... find out why. What did they do and then how did they correct it? 

Since Thanksgiving is coming up next week...... have a read and see what happened to get this whole holiday thing started in the first place..... 

this>>>  http://www.forbes.com/sit...e-led-to-thanksgiving/

I'll wager this thread is locked by 8am Monday morning...... it's not across the TOS but it's in that gray area for sure. 

drewfx1


 

The reality is that in any important negotiation things don't get done until the very last second - after each side feels they have achieved the best deal they can possibly get.

Another reality is that many corporate contracts can become null when there is a union strike that lasts for a specific amount
of time.
Another way that the laborer is a played pawn in the game.
 
For the last 40+ years company profits trickling down to the work force has been trimmed far below the cost of living increase
with the addition of sky rocketing living and insurance costs while lining the pockets of upper management and shareholders.
It has been great for those in the upper ranks and especially considering that their contracts are likely padded with major
pay when leaving. I know of two CEOs that made over 5 million just to leave and both were with the same company.
 
The model is a pretty darn good one for the upper  ranks.....massive income, stretch the life of the company on bare
minimum to keep profits for massive management salaries for the  duration while keeping the workforce in place by just enough to keep them afloat- which is currently around 3% annually. And major lump sums for when the management changes.
 
Of course little of that 3% is seen due to rising cost of insurance even if a group policy is offered.
It has worked so well that many companies have managed to keep the plants running for the last 40 years while very slowly
starving the middle class into extinction.
 
Only within the last ten years has the dwindling of the middle class become headline topic.
 
The biggest issue with such a fantastic model is that the "fire escape" route has not been designed with the middle class laborers
in mind...it has been to relocate big business to cheaper labor force ...model survives along with managements incredible salaries.
Shareholders are happy. Profits are making them very, very wealthy and the middle class can do whatever...starve or find a lower
paying job.
 
World economy was never designed to raise the standard of living in countries outside of the US to the standard of the US.
The standard of living in world economy is for it to seek a balance- meaning that the standard of living in the US must drop as
most countries have a lower standard...which is perfect for the American business model. More people for the companies to
use as their "work horses". The model is simple...feed and water the horse enough to keep it coming back for more.
 
That is a completely different model than the business model of the '50s and '60's when business invested into the workforce and
the business.
It did last into the early to mid seventies. Good salaries, saving plans where the company would match dollar for dollar. Excellent
health and retirement packages.....all started disappearing in the mid seventies and most completely unheard of by the mid eighties.
 
So yes...from about the mid seventies to today the American middle class has been on a very strick and unhealthy diet while
those serving the dish have become so fat and have such a large supply of food that it is really of no concern to them....just move
to a place and serve those that require even less to survive. World economy.
 
 
 
 

As far as a business model that worked for many years, check out Lincoln Electric.  Not a big company, but one that held off foreign competition for many years because ownership realized the best way to sustained success was to treat and pay their workers well (well above average actually). 

The workers were required to work extremely hard, and they did so willingly, because their efforts were richly rewarded.  The heads of the company didn't take huge salaries/benefits as they knew the company would be better off if they did not.

IMO, we are in the time of "son of Boesky".  One might remember his most infamous quote of the 1980s: "Greed is good."

Unfortunately, as we continue our rush towards oblivion, we seem to be taking the attitude of "I've got mine, forget you."  When the "forgotten" vastly outnumber the "I've got mine" bad things tend to happen.

Another lesson in history: in the 1920's Germany went broke.  It took a wheelbarrow full of Marks just to get a loaf of bread, "money" was banded together and children used those "blocks" to play with.  A farmer was able to pay off the debt of his entire farm with three eggs.  The Weimar Republic was extremely corrupt, and Germany was also crushed as a result of the WWI settlements.  The "solution" that followed was one of the most notorious in history (I say "one of" because one also has to think of Stalin, and the Ukraine, the Gulag, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.).

While I am very optimistic about what individuals can accomplish (not to mention musically with such great tools as Sonar <smile>), on a national/international level, there are reasons for great concern.

Wait... did you just actually imply that you shouldn't have to pay ANY taxes into the system? A system as I pointed out makes it possible for you to actually run your business?  Sorry, man. Society does not work that way. Again I point you to Somalia to take a look how things are run in the type of social structure you are suggesting. Also I'm not going to pick apart your talking points but they have obviously been pulled directly from the far right's playbook. They are the types of ideologies that crushed the world's economy in the first place. Lookit... I don't like a lot of what the left has to offer either but the current right wing has gone WAY off the deep end. They used to be responsible conservatives who actually practiced what they preached. This new conservatism is completely geared towards stripping away as much wealth from the common man as possible and that includes you.

As far as this thread going off the rails into political territory it was your accusations towards the workers and the unions that started it. I should not have replied but then all that misinformation would have been sitting there unchallenged for anyone who has not read about this specific case to get misled by.

Yes, modern day unions have a lot of flaws but without them there never even would have been a middle class... ever. 

That said I think it's best I bow out of this conversation because I like you well enough but there is absolutely no way we are going to see eye to eye on political matters. I hope you open your mind and do some research as to what these corporatists are really all about as opposed to what their PR firms have led you to believe. You think the government taking a percentage of your earnings is bad? These guys will take EVERYTHING from you and laugh.

To be clear I am a true fiscal conservative and do believe in less government waste and bloat but we NEED infrastructure in a modern society and we NEED regulations to keep businesses honest and our economies and workforces strong. Trim the fat, keep the muscle.

Peace.

Twinkies won't go away. They'll just be made in China and have a few new mystery ingredients added.