At last, I have managed to watch a very interesting video, so thanks for that.

I can't say I understand much of it, and that is down to my lack of knowledge on this subject.

As for my own music, I am always glad/happy that I create something with a reasonable dynamic range.

I've gotten them Klanghelm meters now so I will start using them and see if it makes a difference. I somehow need to understand how to use them, of course.

Hi Andy, well the first thing you need is some alignment tones. Tones recorded at various levels. eg -20 dB FS, -14 dB FS and perhaps -12 dB FS. (Stereo tracks are handy here too for the alignment tones as it avoids any pan law issues) These are the K System ref levels but you can work at others eg -18 dB FS. I prefer -20 in that case as it is close to -18 anyway and is also used as a ref in other situations. (eg theatre soundtracks etc) These tones can be 400 Hz or say 1 KHz for example. 

Some programs can make these ref tones like Adobe Audition etc.. Not sure about Sonar but if there is a built in oscillator then you will be able to do it too. The main thing is the levels are accurate.

You have to decide what ref level you are going to work at and put the right alignment tone onto a (interleaved) track. Then you playback the test tones and insert a VU meter on that track. You need to let the Klanghelm meters know what the ref level is as well. Check manual for changing the ref level. Once these two things agree then when you playback the ref tone will show the VU meter to be at 0 dB VU and then everything is lined up. 

You can now use the meter for tracking for example. While the input signal is coming in (input echo needs to be turned on or input monitoring engaged) you simply adjust your input gain so the VU is just peaking up to 0 dB most of the time. It may go over here and there but remember you have got all that headroom above the 0dB VU mark so you will rarely clip because most of the time you are well away from 0dB FS.

You can use them on busses as well. Just check that the whole buss signal is also just peaking the VU up to the 0 dB mark most of the time. If it is going over a lot then group all the tracks that are feeding that buss and pull them down accordingly to achieve a nice 0 dB VU reading on your buss. Same with the master buss, the final mix should also just be peaking 0 dB VU. You will find if you get your track and buss levels set nicely, the masterbuss tends to just fall into place VU wise. The whole mix should also just be hitting 0 dB VU for most of the time.

You will rarely clip anything anywhere using VU's because they are keeping you away from the 0 dB FS mark all the time. Also if you mix say 10 tunes and you are using VU meters for all of them you will end up with all your mixes being the same volume. Very handy before any mastering takes place, you have already sorted out one aspect of mastering and that is level matching multiple tracks. Of course you will want to fine tune track levels within an album but this is much easier as well if you have worked with VU's along the way.

Let me know if you are having any issues getting your hands on any alignment tones as I can post them up onto my Soundcloud if need be and make them downloadable so you can download and use them etc..

Many thanks Jeff.

If it is not too much trouble, a set of reference tones, uploaded to Soundcloud would be fantastic. But I will have a quick search on the internet first.

I haven't heard of K System before, so I googled that and found a rather interesting article about this. I suppose it is obvious to me now that K stands for Katz. Even though I have managed for the last thirty years as a complete amateur and just done things my own way, I know of Bob Katz, as we all should, IMO. Here's the link to that, for those who may be interested:-


http://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=65 


Reading through that article, and your words here Jeff, I'm heading into uncharted waters, but I reckon that this will be a worthwhile journey for me.


cheers


andy

I've never been a fan of VU meters. Too imprecise. SPAN is all the metering I need. It's always the end of my signal chain, even when I'm using tools with their own metering such as Ozone or Pro-L. Maybe not as scientific as the EBU standard but it's simple, practical and free.

An inexpensive EBU loudnes meter (15 euros) is available here. However, when I demoed it a while back it was a serious CPU cycle sucker.

Thanks for the vid link. Interesting and informative. I asked related question some months ago here and recvd similar info from Jeff and others. Been using the T-Racks metering suite, seems to work well, shows a lot of pertanent level info.

This interesting related video was linked on the YouTube page from the OP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EIRF7QW0eA

This is Ian Shepherd comparing two versions of Green Day's American Idiot, one of my favorite examples of nasty over-compression. You can now buy a remastered version of this album that's less compressed, which is a great development. I love the album on a musical level, but it's very fatiguing to listen to. I may have to re-purchase it now. 

Let's hope this is the beginning of an industry trend: dynamic remasters of previously-squashed but otherwise great albums. Wouldn't it be great if the more recent Rush albums could get the same treatment! 

I'd love to have that LCAST meter, but even the introductory price of $149 puts it out of my pricerange. 

Dave quoted this: I've never been a fan of VU meters. Too imprecise.....

When it comes to measuring the rms component the VU meter is just the opposite, it is very accurate whereas the peak meter in most DAW's is totally inaccurate (and useless) in this department. The imprecise part of the VU meter is in its inability to show any peak values and you won't get any argument from me there. The ultimate thing is to use both.

VU metering begins right at the start at tracking level and goes all the way along to the end not just towards the end of the signal chain as well. It makes setting incoming track levels far easier than any peak meter can. You just adjust the input gain while the incoming signal is coming in and tweak for a nice 0 dB VU reading. Simple as that, all done. (Different for fast transient sounds though, this is where your peak metering comes in much more)

Interesting thing here is that if you only had one I would choose the VU as the meter to have because if you are working at a decent ref level eg -20 dB FS then all you have to do is monitor the rms values and like the old analog days the peaks just take of themselves.

I prefer to keep all the rms components of my signals the same and not sweat the peaks. Many people are doing the opposite, they are keeping all their peak values in check but have no idea what the actual rms parts of the signals are that are below the peaks. Also with correct VU metering you will never and I mean never see a clip light anywhere again.

Andy I am away from home but will be back towards the end of the week and I will put up all my test signals again on Soundcloud.

Jeff Evans

Andy I am away from home but will be back towards the end of the week and I will put up all my test signals again on Soundcloud.

Much appreciated Jeff. And no rush as it will probably be later in the week that I get back onto my DAW (part timers huh!). I am really interested in giving this a go. I've never used a VU meter since the time I had my Teac Tascam Portastudio back in the early eighties LOL.


By the way, in an effort to educate me even further, I need to know what FS stands for. I know FSD = Full Scale Deflection (and that term is used for any gauge no matter what it is measuring). I've done a search on google and drawn a blank for a change.


thanks


andy


Edit : I put BDFS into google instead of DBFS... plonker

I've since found this wiki article:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBFS

FS in terms of digital levels is the maximum level that can be obtained in the digital world so all signal levels will be under that. That is why all values have a negative number attached to them. 0dB FS stands for 0 dB Full Scale 

http://www.lavryengineeri..om/wiki/index.php/0dBFS 

Be careful not to confuse this with the 0 dB VU. If you have your VU set to show 0 dB VU at a level of say -14 dB FS what that means is there is still 14 dB of extra headroom above that 0 dB VU mark on the meter. The VU meter still has 3 dB of extra scale to the right of 0 dB VU (the red part of the scale) and there is still 11 dB of extra headroom above the meter right over at +3. ( or 17 dB above that if we are working at -20 dB FS)

But when we see the VU going over 0 dB VU we want to bring the levels back down to keep the meter swinging just up to 0 dB most of the time. The meter will occasionally swing higher than 0 dB VU, in fact it might even pin over hard but that is usually Ok because we know we have so much headroom above 
0 dB VU. But as soon as we start seeing the meter going over 0 dB VU we will usually act to bring it back to 0 dB VU again.

So if I record a test tone at -20 dB FS it means that signal will only reach a maximum level that is 20 dB down from 0 dB FS. There is a standard here that refers to the very tops of the sinewave reaching that level. It means also there is 20 dB of headroom above that average signal level.  

-14 dB FS is 6 dB louder than -20 dB FS and -12 dB FS is 8 dB louder than -20 dB FS. But with -14 dB FS there is only 14 dB of headroom above that before the signal theoretically clips. So while -14 dB is louder there is less headroom.

I do a lot of general work at -14 dB and albums and more higher quality projects at -20 dB FS. What I like about the K system is the ability to change the ref level according to the types of projects you might be doing. If you do change ref levels you have to let the VU meter know you have changed the ref level as well.

If I am working towards a very loud master at the end of the day I might even start a project at -14 dB. Mastering brings the ref levels up even higher than -12 dB FS. Clients are often pushing for higher average levels such as -9 to -7 dB FS. Pity it would be great to stay right at -14 or even -20 dB and just turn the volume up. We would then have fantastic dynamic and transient recordings as a result.

Thanks for your patience Jeff. I think I am starting to grasp this, with your words and reading various articles. So thanks again for that.