Some worms at risk of escaping the can here methinks.

You might equally argue that every progression of C,F,G (or A,D,E for guitar players) falls into the same category of fake, as 12-bar blues are essentially all re-arrangements.  I would argue that William Orbit has applied musicianship to some of the arrangements he has done in the 'Pieces' series, while Tomita copied the entire Planets suite, and aside from adding some robot countdown at the start of Mars, he left the original instrumentation largely untouched.  In fact, that album was a significant factor in getting me to 'borrow' my schools mini Moog from the music school for extended periods of time!

There's clearly a line here that is not set at the same point for everyone, and I do admire those who can genuinely make new or different out of an existing arrangement, whether that uses loops, samples or new instrumentation.  My credit goes to anyone who can conjour something creative that was not there before.

I haven't been to a club for probably 20+ years, but sometimes I really enjoy listening to extended dance mixes, particularly the euphoria styles.  Something about sequenced 16th notes and loops has always appealed to me since TD's Phaedra, and then Moroder's disco patterns.

 I think some people can fall into loops too.

if it's free, but boring, what's the point?

Wood67

Some worms at risk of escaping the can here methinks.

You might equally argue that every progression of C,F,G (or A,D,E for guitar players) falls into the same category of fake, as 12-bar blues are essentially all re-arrangements.

The blues bore me to tears to be quite honest. I can play the blues, but it's so monotonous and repetitive that I can only stomach it for just so long. That's why a lot of bands will warm up with a blues song ... it's easy, repetitive, and doesn't end until you say so. Just like looping. LOL!

But I still consider anyone who can actually pick up a guitar and play the blues a musician. I don't consider the person who samples that guitar player's work and rearranges it to his/her liking a musician. Not by a long shot.

Wood67


Some worms at risk of escaping the can here methinks.

You might equally argue that every progression of C,F,G (or A,D,E for guitar players) falls into the same category of fake, as 12-bar blues are essentially all re-arrangements.  I would argue that William Orbit has applied musicianship to some of the arrangements he has done in the 'Pieces' series, while Tomita copied the entire Planets suite, and aside from adding some robot countdown at the start of Mars, he left the original instrumentation largely untouched.  In fact, that album was a significant factor in getting me to 'borrow' my schools mini Moog from the music school for extended periods of time!

There's clearly a line here that is not set at the same point for everyone, and I do admire those who can genuinely make new or different out of an existing arrangement, whether that uses loops, samples or new instrumentation.  My credit goes to anyone who can conjour something creative that was not there before.

I haven't been to a club for probably 20+ years, but sometimes I really enjoy listening to extended dance mixes, particularly the euphoria styles.  Something about sequenced 16th notes and loops has always appealed to me since TD's Phaedra, and then Moroder's disco patterns.

^^^^This


Using loops falls into the category of "arranging" and it's still all music. You cannot create great music from loops unless you have a musical ear. And the musical ear is, after all, a huge part of what being a musician is all about. Who is the better musician:


1) Someone who cannot play a musical instrument but who has good musical judgment and can pull together a number of loops and samples from different sources and arrange them into a great sounding tune that didn't exist before
2) Someone who can play Flight Of The Bumblebee on guitar at 600BPM but who can't write for toffee? 

Bub

Mystic38

I think loops has a huge roll to play in todays music ... their availability is allowing closet musicians to produce an entire track.. and it doesnt matter what the merit of said track is... more folks making music is better.

If I use the stamp tool in Photoshop to put, say, a flower, in someone else's art work, does that make me an artist? Artist as in painter/drawer, not in the general sense. I would say absolutely not.

I just have a hard time giving someone credit as a musician if they use pre-made music and arrange it. Not a big deal either way, and it's kind of splitting hairs on my part to even bring this up, but it always makes me laugh when someone uses another persons music and calls themselves a musician.

I do agree that loops play a huge roll in today's music. I'd say 98% of what you hear on the radio is fake.

while we can have a pointless discussion in ad nauseum regarding the long and slippery slope of fake..:)..  i guess you are missing my point... my point was that loops and (say) Live has enabled a huge number of folks to make music that were previously disenfranchised...
 
I dont care what music people make, what genre, whether any of it is any good, or whether i like it or not... the more people active in making music and the more consumers in this space the better for everyone...
 

2) Someone who can play Flight Of The Bumblebee on guitar at 600BPM but who can't write for toffee?

sharke

That be true.  Which reminds me (and advance apologies for any fans), I worked a session for a few days with Yngwie Malmsteen.  Now there was a man who could indeed play Bumblebee at near 600BPM.  And for my money it sounded terrible.  Technically impressive yes, but musically drab.
 
I ended up recording about 15 minutes of him warming up and playing scales.  Then I burned it to cassette and took it home to my flat.  I had a neighbour who was just learning to play the guitar, and knew I was an engineer in the 'business' so was always asking the 'Who are you working with today?' questions.  I put the tape on super loud while he was in, and never heard him play again.  In the context of this thread that was probably a terrible thing to do and now I feel guilty!

Yngwie...now there is a "phenomenon" I have never understood....I always thought his playing sounded really lame, and for my money there were a zillion "speed" guitarists around at the time who played and sounded better than him...Paul Gilbert, for example. 

Different strokes for different folks.  Loops are just another tool in the toolbox to me.  And the more tools the better.  No one says you have to use 'em.  Isn't music about producing a "pleasing" sound?  (A treat for the ears.)  Kinda like a great picture is a treat for the eyes.

I can make a pleasing sound utilizing loops in my creation in much the same way I can make a pleasing sound with my guitar.  And lord knows I can make some terrible sounding crap with my guitar as well!!!!   LOL....  not music at all!

Some people like chocolate, some like vanilla....  So what if a fellow creates something pleasing using loops.... I'd rather see him attempting something musical and creative than say, throwing a baseball 97mph.  (just using that as an example...)

Peace, out.

tbosco


And lord knows I can make some terrible sounding crap with my guitar as well!!!!   LOL....  not music at all!

I bought the same lesson book!