• Coffee House
  • How bout Song Structure and Chord Progressions?
2012/11/04 08:48:40
davdud101
Yeah, I ask tonnes of questions... But it's OKAY for a Michigan-born Afro-Merican trombone/guitar/keyboardist 15 yr old kid, right? right???
Anyway, I was wondering, what are some different:
  1. Song structures? I find myself extremely stuck to the ABCABCDC, and I'm actually getting annoyed ofi t because it's becoming a tad monotonous for me.
  2. Chrod Progressions? I guess I don't NEED them in specific keys (would be nice, that way I could just transpose and figure the rest out), e.g. I'm kinda cool with talking with 3rds, 5ths, etc. But I just wanna see what different combos there are for these guys.
Thing is, I want to push my songwriting to another level- beyond the VSTi's, deeper than the LFOs and sine waves, but into the music. And I'll need a bit of assitance. Thanks!
2012/11/04 08:56:09
The Maillard Reaction


The A doesn't have to be a verse.

If you start with a chorus every now and again you can mix it up a bunch and the song form might be similar even though it doesn't seem so.



I offer that as simply one of dozens of ways to add variety to your song writing.


best regards,
mike
2012/11/04 09:01:01
davdud101
Whoa, Mike, I like that idea!!! I'm going to definetly start keeping different variations on structures in a notepad file somewhere.
Thanks, keep 'em coming, everyone!
2012/11/04 10:59:35
Guitarhacker
Listen to the founders of soul music..... and some of the off spring as well. 

Al Green, Temptations, Sly Stone, James Brown, suggesting these as a starting point.  

As a suburban white kid growing up in the 60's and into music, that is what I was listening to back in the day..... also in that mix was the Beatles, Stones, Who, Deep Purple, and so many more really great artists and bands from all sides of the musical aisle. 

Expose yourself to as many diverse musical influences as possible in the genre you love and most especially ones that you may not like all that well.  Include jazz, country, bluegrass, cajun, european, and as many others as you can. You will learn something from them all. 

When it comes to songwriting..... (one of my favorite things to do and talk about) there are no rules per say..... there are however, certain "current rules" and suggestions.  What is acceptable now may not be in 6 months. 


When I set down to write a song I do not start out by saying I will write to this or that formula.... ABABCB  or ABCABCDC  or BAABAB.  I let the song dictate what structure it will be.  Keeping in mind that depending on the genre.... certain structures are more conducive to hit songs than others.   I simply write what I feel and it will generally take one of the major structures all by itself. 

I'm mainly a country writer, although I do dabble in other genre's from time to time.  Years ago it was common to start a country song with the chorus, but in today's country that is almost never done.  Now, ONE verse followed by pre-chorus or straight to a monster killer hook chorus rule in Nashville.  Lots of songs that are hits are simple ABAB song structures. The chorus and hook determine if it's a hit. 

The mantra is "don't bore us, get to the chorus" ... that's in Nashville.  But I think that would also apply to the pop music world as well.... Many songs have meaningless or of disputable value verses... they are place holders... the real goal is the chorus..... the hook is there and that is the part everyone sings and remembers. 

A good idea would be to seek out songwriters in your genre. There are sites and forums online that cater to every musical taste.

I was with TAXI for a time: they cater to film & tv.... they have a great educational aspect and as a visitor to the site you can join in the forum for free. Meet others from ALL genres there. Members can submit to musical opportunities in the film & tv world as well as artist listings. They also do song reviews.

Nashville Songwriters Association: all about writing and education in that line of thought. As a member you get 12 detailed reviews and one on one (1 hr each) sessions with writers who have had hits and careers in the biz. They have an extensive members only library of online videos that feature people in the biz explaining details of all aspects of the business and especially focused on the writing of songs. 

Songwriting is not a natural thing for most people. It is a learned skill and as with all skills, you can become much better at it by doing, and by associating with other more skilled writers and learning to do what they do. 

Even the biggest and best songwriters, the ones that write the hits.... write an average of 50 songs to one chartable top 10 hit. So get busy writing..... find kindred souls, and learn all you can about the craft and art of writing a good song. 

2012/11/05 17:02:57
davdud101
Thanks a ton, GH! Really informative and comprhensive information there, I'll definitely be commiting a bit of it to memory.

anything to learn for Chord Progression?
2012/11/05 17:08:07
Guitarhacker
1, 4, 5 works as a start...then go from there adding what the song wants to add....

As I say in my signature......

Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer.  It's already there.... it's just waiting for the right person through whom it will make itself known.... let the song write itself.  If you try too hard to write a song you will generally end up with crap.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to progressions.... I do try to find unique and interesting chords to use to augment the basic 1,4,5. 
2012/11/05 17:18:54
davdud101
So true. I-IV-V is pretty standard, I could honestly name a bunch of songs off the top of my head that follow it, several of my own included. Any specific variations/deviations you could give me on that?
2012/11/05 19:51:20
Crg
davdud101


Yeah, I ask tonnes of questions... But it's OKAY for a Michigan-born Afro-Merican trombone/guitar/keyboardist 15 yr old kid, right? right???
Anyway, I was wondering, what are some different:
  1. Song structures? I find myself extremely stuck to the ABCABCDC, and I'm actually getting annoyed ofi t because it's becoming a tad monotonous for me.
  2. Chrod Progressions? I guess I don't NEED them in specific keys (would be nice, that way I could just transpose and figure the rest out), e.g. I'm kinda cool with talking with 3rds, 5ths, etc. But I just wanna see what different combos there are for these guys.
Thing is, I want to push my songwriting to another level- beyond the VSTi's, deeper than the LFOs and sine waves, but into the music. And I'll need a bit of assitance. Thanks!

Well,... chords are just notes grouped together. Every group of notes has many, many, ways of arrangement and execution, inflection, ie., how and when they are made, strike force, which note first, which note loudest, the sequence of all the parameters you are able to sound on a chord. The definitions of key are just that, definitions that follow a set of rules that was as close as possible to a mathmatical constant. But there is no constant, only what the human ear will accept.
Song structure will denote style. Folk is the oldest and trueist. Go back to a chant amoung apes, you will have the roots of folk music.
You must build song structure on what you are trying to acheive in terms of imparting a rythm, chant, prayer, feeling, etc. Song structure should carry the meaning and soul of the peice.
2012/11/05 23:47:24
sharke
For ideas on putting awesome chord progressions together, listen to Steely Dan.

There, I've said it. 

*ducks*
2012/11/06 00:08:36
57Gregy
davdud101


So true. I-IV-V is pretty standard, I could honestly name a bunch of songs off the top of my head that follow it, several of my own included. Any specific variations/deviations you could give me on that?
There was a thread here awhile back about chord substitution. Where you may have gone to D in every other verse/chorus but next time through, change it to F#m or Bm. C to Am, G to Em, etc.
At least that's what I thought the OP meant.
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