Thanks Mike- It was supposed to be I'll be lickin' for you.
 
I just did one rough take. No talent show here lol, I had hoped that this would give a decent idea of how the mic sounded with acoustic guitar and vox. I might try a few more mics maybe with just acoustic or something to see how they compare.The drop box file doesn't sound as good as the original for some reason. I kept the file wav. Maybe they compress it.
 
AT- I think I see your point. I suspect you have worked or are working with some high end gear and it's probably hard to come off the crack once you've been there. I mean, the whole idea about why consumer or pro consumer gear exists in the first place is because it fills a niche. It's  usually a compromise of some kind .With really good gear there are few if any compromises made, or at the least there shouldn't be.
 
So far here's what I've come up with. Depending on how you view this.
 
1.Mics matter- A. Not at all  B. Microphones matter only slightly C. Microphone selection matters a LOT.
 
2.The amount of money a mic costs means- A. It's always the best choice B. Is seldom ever a factor C. A higher price in a mic would put it in a more important category for consideration over less expensive mics.
 
3.When comparing mics I - A. Always listen and look at specs first.B. I go primarily by recommendations from other engineers. C. Both A and B.  D. I don't really compare, if I find something I like I buy it.
 
4. I admit to brand loyalty because- A. It's what I've always used. B. I bought another product of theirs and I liked it. C. It is an industry standard. D. I am not brand loyal.E. I have other reasons ( It's made in my country, my uncle works at the factory etc., they pay me to plug their mics etc. )
 
5. I - A. Have a  large mic collection ( 10 or more) B. Have 10 or less mics. 
 
6. Although I have a  mic collection I- A. Don't use many of them and instead use only a few
favorites. B. I use most of my mics all of the time.
 
7. My favorite sandwich is A. Peanut butter and jelly B. Egg Salad C. Cold cuts D. I like a hot sandwich.E None of the above because I'm weird.
 
8. I record best A. When it's butt freezing cold outside B. In a tropical setting C. I like to sweat when I'm recording D. When my clients are missing a few fries from the happy meal.
 
9. I base my self esteem on my mics and other recording equipment A. totally true, I mean totally. B. Not at all true, not even a little true. C. Somewhat true depending on the mood I'm in.
 
10. I think recording is A. fun B. a gas C. neither A nor B. D. Immensely satisfying sometimes.E. I would trade my mother for it.
 
The following is a public service announcement, no claims are made as to the validity of this statement. This is the express opinion of one individual and the conditions influencing said opinion may or may not be factual, although every attempt has been made to assure the authenticity of the following statements I take no responsibility whatsoever.Remember... tar and featherings have been outlawed.
 
Are you ready  for this??
 
Are you really sure that you're really sure that you're ready for this?
 
Well OK then,
 
Somewhere along the line what seems to have happened is that companies have streamlined and improved the manufacturing process to the point that  good mics can be made on the cheap.The trickle down from this is that the better and less expensive the higher ended mics become,  the better the lower ended mics sound. The high end mics sound exceptionally good and the lower ended mics sound  good unless they happen to be Nady mics.

It seems like you're almost done with your book.
 
;-)

FWIW, the reason I asked about what happened at the "looking" is because it sounded like a mic farting and I wondered if you considered what it was that caused that sound.

Danny Danzi

Jay Tee 4303
I mentioned the room, and I do respect your knowlege and experience, so no offense taken, but...
 
Statement was, if I can't make an SM58 sound decent, the problem is something other than mic selection, one possibility being room problems.
 
I do have room issues, in certain spots and certain directions, with real quick, noticeable ambiance, especially with LDCs. I also have to sing as far away as two feet, I move a LOT of air at times, and overload my nicer mics. That's with a screen. Good chance its related to the vaulted ceiling config. and/or a floor to ceiling wall of equipment. The stand mount baffle and a remote transport unit made short work of that, but it was an issue and this isn't a gymnasium...I wish!
 
I also had to snaffle out a strange one...got tired of main furnace issues and installed gas fired vent free wall units as backup, and they RING like a no name Chinese cymbal, basically centered on VOX freqs. Pack em like a kick drum and problem solved, but it took a bit to find it after noticing it on playback.
 
Prefer not to comp or EQ on the way in, but sometimes have to apply some light dynamics pro to get nuance and full throat on tape in one take.
 
Different strokes, right?
 
:-)

Jay Tee....glad I didn't offend you as it's never my intention. However, you shouldn't have to sing 2 ft away brother. Back down your mic pre. If you're clipping the mic due to the signal being too hot, you definitely want to cut that down. Next, you're hurting yourself by not compressing lightly going in. It conditions the signal for the better and stops some of what you're getting now. You don't have to use much...but honest when I tell you, once you do it, you'll never go without. You don't need anything spectacular really. Any outboard rack comp will do.
 
Or are you saying you're moving enough air to distort the diaphragm in the mic? If THAT is the case, you Sir are an anomaly. :) LOL! (meant as a compliment and with respect of course) I've never experienced that before with any of my clients in all my years of doing this. Wow! I had a girl that was breaking glasses and a dude that made Pavoroti seem tame...lol....but they never distorted the mic itself. Whew...you must have some power there.
 
But if you haven't, seriously, try backing your mic signal down. Are you using the boost in the pad maybe? If you can, go for an average signal level of -10 dB with a max peak at about -6dB. No hotter, no lower. A little outboard compression using say, a 5:1 ratio removing about -2dB of gain reduction at your hottest signal point should condition your signal perfectly and stop any possible overs from coming into play. I move quite a bit of air myself...so I can relate. For a lil guy, I got some lungs. :) What comes out doesn't sound too good for me, but I got lungs! LOL! What are you using as a mic pre and what is your final input these days? Meaning, what do you record vocals at as far as your mic input signal goes? We gotta get you singing closer to that mic if in fact your room is giving you issues. At 2 ft away, you'll definitely have problems. I wonder if your mic pre is working right? This is definitely strange for sure.
 
-Danny

Process of elim, which isn't the same as proof, says I'm distorting the diaphragm or micS' circuitS. Think its a resonance artifact, just don't see how it could be SPL. I spent 20 years in construction jobsite supervision and was too lazy to climb down and climb up somewhere else, or walk cross the site and back for one sentence, so I learned to project vox thru exhaust ambients of cranes, dozers, and dump trucks. Suspect the room slapback I eliminate with the standmount baffle is part of the bundle, now that you mention it.
 
I use the most gain on a TLM102 thru an ISA 2, three notches coarse and 2 o'clock on the trim, which adds up to 40db if you believe the marks. Highpass off, not getting overs and it takes out something that's hard to get back in post. I try to hold 9 down average, 6 down for peaks, then use up to +3db, to minus 3 for swells and emphasis at mixdown. Part of me feels like a dinosaur, since its all 24 bit, but old habits die hard.
 
I have compared the kinda comping you suggest with straight in, and to my ears its a wash. Vox playback thru a Sonar buss w a T-Racks Opto set as you suggest (nice call!), and cans run thru a dBx 266 set the same way, but Sonar gets it clean, which, I assume, saves me a tad of noise and one DA-AD cycle.
 
Still in config with a mostly new rig, I suspect things will evolve over time with more discerning clients. For now, I enjoy the freedom to let it go all the way, AND to come in to the screen for nuance and special fx. My older sis cut my teeth on Deep Purple and Iron Butterfly in my first decade, and as YOU well know, there is no such thing as loud, without a whisper to compare it to.
 
Max S/N FO EVAH!
\m/

Here's an example where placing the mic is a balance of choice between capturing quiet passages and making sure the microphone doesn't blow out in the loud parts.
 
While the mic and its capsule are rated for very high SPL the electronics rely on phantom power. :-( and so the mic can start to sound stressed way before the SPL limit is reached. In this circumstance I place it back far enough to fulfill a hope of recording what the vocalist's voice actually sounds like rather than the characteristic sound of a mic being pushed hard.
 

 
The preamp the mic is connected to has no trouble with the signal level. It is the circuitry within the mic itself where the edginess can get permanently imprinted into the recording.
 
This is a remote recording done at someones house. I think a nice tube mic with its solid power supply would sound even smoother than the FET mic used for this vocal track but I am reluctant to drag tube mics around to remote locations.
 
best regards,
mike

mike_mccue
FWIW, the reason I asked about what happened at the "looking" is because it sounded like a mic farting and I wondered if you considered what it was that caused that sound.

Mike I'm the one with GAS. I don't think it was the mic.

Starise
 
Beepster- I doing great man, how about you?
Best of luck in finding a decent LDC. I also like to scour and look scour and look scour and look, then decide when it involves a little more money. I wouldn't hesitate to try one of those AT2020s if they had good recommendations . I believe they were primarily aimed at the home studio users and probably sound at least as good or better than some.

Can't say things are great but definitely moving in the direction they need to be. Thanks for asking. I had actually forgotten about the AT2020 until this thread as all new purchases are at a standstill for now (been riding out a real tight financial year that should be correcting itself somewhat so I can squirrel away a few bucks here and there for small purchases again) but taking another look at it it is still looking pretty good. I'm recalling the one issue that was a bit of a downer which is that apparently the low end response for male baritone (I do a lot of lower stuff but not always) isn't that great but with a bit of input EQ or messing around with things in the box I'm sure that is easily compensated for. Just need a nice clear signal to work with. The C01's just have a very strange quality to them that I've never really liked. I've got a couple Blue Balls too (hardy har) that are interesting but again not quite where I want to be. Then there are my dynamics (some 58's, a weird Sennheiser, some AT 58 clones, the remainder of the Samson drum mic kit which aren't really designed for vox and my surprisingly awesome $30 Shure C606) all of which are... well again not where I want to be for vox. So currently it's a massive exercise in experimenting with combining these mics in different configurations, input settings and post tracking crud. It's a pain and the results so far have been mediocre. It just isn't the right gear so I think having at least ONE decent vocal mic in my kit is imperative. If the bass response ends up being too crappy then maybe I'll combine it with the kick mic from the Samson kit and blend the tracks to get some bottom end back but without a nice solid mid and high range... well I'm kind of boned.
 
It's also a drag not being able to go test out mics so I have to make decisions purely based on reviews and peer to peer advice. As I said I've had good luck so far in that regard so hopefully that will remain true in this instance. I WOULD go for the Beta 58 which I do have experience with because they seem to be going for only a little more than the AT2020 but I don't have a proper hardware preamp to really draw out the signal so I'm not sure a dynamic mic is a good fit.
 
Anyway... that's a lot of blathering but yeah... mic decisions, bro. Very difficult and subjective. Even when there are hundreds or thousands of dollars available to drop on this type of thing it's still extremely difficult to know exactly what is needed for everything you will encounter.  Too many variables in play. One of the things established pro studios still have working for them over the home or mini studios is those massive mic collections. Something ain't exactly right? Well let's just pull out this OTHER $5000 mic and see that does. lol

Sorry to have taken the subject slightly off course. The first 6 or so questions of that little questionnaire  were simply intended to get you maybe asking yourself what criteria you generally use when looking for something like a mic. The rest was basically inert fill, even if it is reflective inert fill.
 
The subject was probably a better match for the hardware area of the forum although technique in using a mic and the associated hardware is arguably a technique so maybe I'm still not too far off base.
 
Mike and Danny have raised the importance of proper distance from the mic. Good points all around.
 
After some more homework I finally decided on my next microphone and I ordered one. I'm sure it probably won't be my last. I had a real time of it in deciding. I came around in a circle and then ended back where I had started. I considered many factors in my decision. I ended up in a kind of vanilla place, neither extremely black nor white, but I think it's a good place to be with a small studio and only needing a cardoid. Don't get me wrong the multi pattern mics really had me tempted, but in the end I had to admit that I likely would seldom be using anything but a  tight cardoid pattern as most of my takes use reverb plug-ins and plates. You really don't want to hear what my bedroom sounds like in Bleumen or figure-of-eight and besides I would have needed two multi patterns for some of that work. Don't forget there are plugs that can replicate M/S pretty well.
 
I really liked some of the multi pattern mics though. One mic that really peaked my interest.....so much so that I seriously almost went for it was the SE CS5. For everything the Rode NT2A can do it still doesn't touch the capability of that mic in terms of filters and patterns. The CS5 is the flagship mic from SE as of this writing. If the mic sounds a little brittle in the mids there's a switch for that. If it sounds a little muddy in the lows...yep...you guessed it, there's a switch for that.For the price it still is darned tempting.
 
I really liked the mic Bat mentioned,the KSM44. In truth I lost out on one of those for a little over 2.00 in a bid war. If one of you guys won it I'm happy for you. It wasn't really something I was seriously looking for but in hindsight I wouldn't have needed the multi patterns. I went to the Shure site and sure enough , they have the capability to listen to that mic in the "a" version.Many say it has a very pleasing neutral sound. After listening to that mic I would have to agree. Not overly forward and neutral. A fine mic for sure.
 
 I hate to say it but I had to admit to myself that what I really needed I didn't think I needed. I think I need a colored mic mainly for vox and guitars. If you care to read further, here is my rationale.
 
It has always been easier for me to knock down a bright tone as opposed to trying to bring up a bland neutral tone. If I later decide I want to take the sound that came from a neutral mic it usually never works as well with EQ and sounds more like a fix than an adjustment.Have you ever tried to bring life out in a bass guitar that has almost no mids? OTOH, If I take a sound that might be a few DB high in the bright ranges and later decide that it's too bright, it's not as difficult to tame it.
 
I went to the Audio Technica site and listened to all of their mics and compared each one(on my ATH M-50's). There isn't a huge difference between some of them. The AT4050 and the AT4047 seemed to me to have a tighter sound on louder transients. The mix seemed noticeably tighter on the acoustic guitar sample on both of those mics. I think the guitarist really hit some of his chords too hard for my taste anyways, even with him pounding on the strings those two mics seemed really stable and clear. The AT4040 lost a little edge over the AT4033. I didn't notice as much of a difference on these two mics with vocals, maybe only something slightly brighter happening in the louder passages in certain ranges of the vocal. Not like a night and day difference but you could tell the AT4033 is a little brighter.
 
I didn't think either mic ( AT4040,AT4033) was as tight on louder passages as the AT4050 and AT4047. None of the mics has any noise to speak of. I decided on the AT4033. I know it's regarded as kind of a basic all rounder, but that's the thing with a decent mic. You want it to be there and maybe to help a little bit but it should be more seamless than a thing that jumps out at you.
 
There is a lot of redundancy built into many mic chains and I think it becomes a preference where you might decide to use any given function, for instance if you bought the SE CS5 you probably don't need an EQ . That mic would probably work well going directly into a decent preamp as would the Rode NT2A because you have a selection of filters before going in, more so with the SE CS5. I have never seen so may filters on a mic.Most half decent mics have a High pass or low rol loff switch, but so do most channel strips, once again it's your call. Use the switch on the mic or use the switch on the channel strip. EQ in the channel strip or EQ in software. Compress in software of compress in your strip going in.
 
Here is  the interface I'm using- http://www.presonus.com/uploads/products/1774/downloads/FireStudio_Tube_Owners_Manual_EN.pdf
 
As you can see I have two "super channels" Class "A" around 50db of gain, A built in limiter and an 80hz LF roll off. Also two 12AX7 tubes that can be fed into the signal with a drive control.  I wouldn't mind having a compressor and a hardware EQ in my chain. Impedance control would be nice. Not sure how much I would gain over what I can do ITB.I think there is something to be said for outboard compression and EQ. 
 

Hey Beepster, hang in there brother, all storms have and end even if we can't see it. I have been there and I think I can relate, at least a little.:) I'm glad to hear things are starting to change for the better.
 
FWIW from what I have come across the AT2020 seems to be recognized as a mic that has that typical tinny sound in the upper registers. I don't think it had as large a diaphragm as the 40 series mics.From what I gather it compares favorably to a lot of the other mics in that range. It probably isn't something that that has the kind of low end you're looking for if you are recording lower male voice. I can't say for certain, I'm only going by what I have read from people who owned the mic, of course there are those who rave about it too, which is what makes looking so frustrating sometimes.
 
I always had decent luck with my SM 57 for lows, especially if I got close to it, you could hear my tonsils jangling. I haven't tried the Sterling I just bought on lower stuff yet. I did notice that when I had it close to the sound hole on my guitar it seemed to pick up some low stuff with no trouble. The Sterlings are made for GC, but I don't hold that against them. The thing with any mic from a local dealer is that most of them will let you return merchandise for a full refund with no restocking fee. I wouldn't be beyond buying used either, if the seller offers a money back guarantee if not satisfied. 
 
From what I can gather about the  pre aging process that a lot of makers use, it keeps the mics functional for years. If the mic hasn't been dropped or thrown in the pool. If it has been kept in a closet somewhere that's dry, then the chances are good it sounds like the day it was new. OTOH if it was in studio "B" and had beer dumped on it, or has seen years of continuous use then I don't want it. The way I look at it, the elements move and therefore are mechanical, the more they move the more they wear and wearing isn't usually good. Lots of folks tried recording and got out of the hobby and the mic might have sat in a closet for a few years. That's the kind of used mic I would look for.
 
 
 

my at4033 has been a GREAT mic
 
good choice