• Techniques
  • Recommendations on Live Music Recording (p.2)
2014/03/15 15:29:06
BoostSoftware
Learning much from the discourse.  And, appreciate the transition to digital has been quite a leap for most.
 
With all the suggestions for mics, I always seem to have issues with the audio sounding tin-ee and tend to lose the bass end.  One friend recommended a PZM or two just in front of the band, behind any monitors to pick up the lower tones. 
 
Have any of you had similar issues, or feedback for getting a more full sound on the final recording?
2014/03/16 17:51:13
BenMMusTech
Look the guys are over complicating things, that is their want.  But honestly get an IXY from Rode if you have an IPhone they even have a grip which hooks up to your camera.  There is an app all you have to do is hit record and you have a 24 bit 96khz file that can be edited and synced later.  It's how I do my live recordings now.
 
Ben
2014/03/16 19:11:17
rumleymusic
Anything is going to be better than on-camera pickup.  Though if you are recording a band, and want it to sound truly professional, you can't just stick up two mics in XY.  That is not to say a stereo pair cannot sound fantastic, but it usually works best with acoustic music in a good room.
 
The OP did say this was guitar and voice with harmonica only.  So XY (or other, better variants of stereo cardioids) could work just great.   If I had only two mics i would but them 2-3 feet in front of the performer and a couple feet above his head.  
 
Personally what I would do for folk music in this situation is: a single LDC for the voice and harmonica, a close stereo pair, or a single mic for the guitar and a stereo (room) pair a few feet back.  Multi Track or mix to taste.  
 
With all the suggestions for mics, I always seem to have issues with the audio sounding tin-ee and tend to lose the bass end.  One friend recommended a PZM or two just in front of the band, behind any monitors to pick up the lower tones. 
 
Have any of you had similar issues, or feedback for getting a more full sound on the final recording?

 
You will not want for anything with proper miking and good microphones.  Dynamic mics and highly directional electret camera mics are not good for stereo pair recording, they will sound weak, use dedicated SDC (pencil) mics.  LDC's can sound muddy on bass heavy material since the transient response is much slower.
 
Keep in mind the more directional the microphone, the greater the proximity effect, and the weaker the bass will sound at a distance. Add to that the fact that highly directional mics are weak in the bass range to begin with.  
2014/03/16 20:41:33
BenMMusTech
rumleymusic
Anything is going to be better than on-camera pickup.  Though if you are recording a band, and want it to sound truly professional, you can't just stick up two mics in XY.  That is not to say a stereo pair cannot sound fantastic, but it usually works best with acoustic music in a good room.
 
The OP did say this was guitar and voice with harmonica only.  So XY (or other, better variants of stereo cardioids) could work just great.   If I had only two mics i would but them 2-3 feet in front of the performer and a couple feet above his head.  
 
Personally what I would do for folk music in this situation is: a single LDC for the voice and harmonica, a close stereo pair, or a single mic for the guitar and a stereo (room) pair a few feet back.  Multi Track or mix to taste.  
 
With all the suggestions for mics, I always seem to have issues with the audio sounding tin-ee and tend to lose the bass end.  One friend recommended a PZM or two just in front of the band, behind any monitors to pick up the lower tones. 

Have any of you had similar issues, or feedback for getting a more full sound on the final recording?

 
You will not want for anything with proper miking and good microphones.  Dynamic mics and highly directional electret camera mics are not good for stereo pair recording, they will sound weak, use dedicated SDC (pencil) mics.  LDC's can sound muddy on bass heavy material since the transient response is much slower.
 
Keep in mind the more directional the microphone, the greater the proximity effect, and the weaker the bass will sound at a distance. Add to that the fact that highly directional mics are weak in the bass range to begin with.  


 The IXY microphone is an XY stereo microphone basically the same as Rodes NT4, it has it's own recording app which you just transfer the stereo recording across from your IPhone.  This aversion to recording to an Idevice is no longer warranted but you will still see the oldies proclaim no way never because oldies fear change!!
http://www.rodemic.com/microphones/ixy
 
Ben 
2014/03/16 22:03:03
rumleymusic
The IXY microphone is an XY stereo microphone basically the same as Rodes NT4, it has it's own recording app which you just transfer the stereo recording across from your IPhone.  This aversion to recording to an Idevice is no longer warranted but you will still see the oldies proclaim no way never because oldies fear change!!

 
To be straight, the iXY is not an NT4, the only thing they have in common is the XY pattern.  One is a traditional condenser, the other is an permanently polarized electret with capsules worth about $5/pair.  The miniature internal JFET negates the need for an external amplifier and can link directly with a tiny AD converter.   The sound is fair, a bit nasal and lacking in space and clarity.  Certainly no substitute for high quality gear for professional use.  For a hobbyist or someone looking to do one better than recording to a camera, this is fine. 
 
Many manufacturers, including Apogee and RME are making their gear class compliant for use on an i-device.  Nothing wrong with using what is essentially a smaller computer which is nothing but a bit storage box.  I does lack in stability and reliability which is something the pros take very seriously, I will not trust my work to something I cannot quite trust. 
 
The "oldies", aka pros, certainly don't fear change, most just know better.
2014/03/17 02:13:58
BenMMusTech
Look the idea of "pro" and "fidelity" are crap.  It's an idea propagated by the corporations which are designed as control mechanisms.  Yes the IXY is a cheap microphone used for the IPhone but to record what the OP has suggested which is acoustic guitar, vocals and harmonica it would be fine.
 
I may have made a superfluous claim and connected the NT4 and the IXY but again the "pros" are giving superfluous data which in the end will only confuse the OP.
 
I recently did some location recordings using the IXY and recorded a couple of jazz bands and a string trio, the sound was amazing and I have excellent ears.
 
All I am saying is look at what the OP wants to do and then try and come up with a solution that isn't so technical, and realise that not everything you understand as pro these days is needed for such a simple need. 
 
Ben 
2014/03/17 13:18:19
rumleymusic
I am trusting the OP has more intelligence than you give her (sorry Erin) credit for.  Instead of trying to pass off snake oil as a real remedy to the OP's issues, some people are trying to give her some advice which may be more useful in the long run.  No, buying such-and-such piece of gear will not solve all her problems, no matter how much your excellent ears like it. 
 
Tin-foil-hat comments about fidelity as corporate propaganda I don't think will help her either.  Other than being discouraging toward self improvement, it is a personal opinion I guarantee most experienced engineers do not share.
2014/03/17 14:24:56
spacealf
This video:
http://youtu.be/LATVxosP5ds
was done with this mic:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VideoMProST/
 
until they told me they do not allow it, and may bane me from coming in the place
if done again.

My old video camera (not HD Ready or HD full - and looks like it)
at the camera's rate of 48kHz and 16 bit, made to 44100kHz and 16 bit
without anything else done to it in the video program into a *.avi file.
-10dB bass cut switch was on, and the place has a sound person.
Noisy with people in it of course, it is live. I was sitting at a table towards the back of the room.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In your case a studio may be different and not allow a camera in the same room,
and may want to kick you out of there while a recording is being made.

Otherwise I suppose there are even better mics, but for one mic, and the entire band
just recording on my old camera, I supose it may not be too bad. In fact with different
adaptors for the connection to equipment I may even consider to sing through it or use
it for recording as a low impedence microphone used in a recording.
(for a low- end version of a mic compared to some mic prices, of which I am not willing
to spend over a thousand dollars for, at least if not more money.
 
2014/03/18 12:16:19
BoostSoftware
Good stuff...especially, the highly charged banter  Well, no.  I don't have an iPhone.  But, will see if any of the musicians want to experiment or go that route.  These are all great tips and will require some follow up to try. 
 
Basically, the type of mic and mic position is the key.  In live television, I have successfully used an omni-directional lavalier mic to pic up the voice and guitar.  If placed properly the voice picks up a little clearer than the guitar and makes for a nice "mix".  However, I prefer the idea of having the mics directly in front and facing the instruments if in a controlled setting. 
 
Should we shoot in the recording studio, it will be primarily for the video production.  So, access will not be an issue.  This is a home recording situation (in a Yurt) and we thought the mixed audio would be best for the audio track.  I'd get various angles and closeups of the action and edit those together after the fact.  This is where the information about how to patch in the feed to my computer and good apps will be crucial.
 
Overall,  this info was perfect in getting me going in the right direction.  Much appreciation for all the expertise and personal experiences in high-end, as well as low-end shared here.  These tips will help me make the best choices for the project.  What a great resource!  I may experiment with some of these ideas this weekend.  I am scheduled to shoot some live performance video and it's just for fun. 
 
Thanks All...BTW:  It's Ms. Erin Walsh;-)
 
2014/03/18 12:33:58
rumleymusic
Thanks All...BTW:  It's Ms. Erin Walsh;-)

 
Edited,  apologies, I didn't read your name.    
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