bitflipper
The classic 808 family of "kick" sounds came from a gated sinewave generator. A HPF on an 808 sample is therefore simply a volume control.

Not quite, that is a bit of an over generalisation from someone who may not know the 808 Kick sound completely well.  If there is any form of transient edge attached to the sound and from memory as I used to own a real 808 then the kick sound can be dialled up with some snap at the start then it is not just a gated sinewave at all, there is more going on. But I sort of agree with Dave too in that it is most often just a low freq sound. I think there are far more interesting kick sounds than a standard 808 kick but the reality is with that comes the need to keep an eye on processing them a bit more too.
 
I was watching an interesting video over on the Presonus forum showing two producer dudes reworking a classic hit inside Studio One.  One of the things I generally got from watching that was the way they set up their kick sounds.  Firstly there was more than one kick sound and a good idea is to put multiple kicks inside a folder track even inside the drum folder track to keep things neat.
 
They had Fab Filter EQ's on each kick and were not afraid to use them to shape the low end of the sound they were after not just on individual kicks but on the kick buss too which they were routed to.  On the individual kicks it was often just a little low end shelving to bring things back into a line a bit.  On the buss they were not afraid to use interesting or even radical EQ to achieve their aims.  I think that is one of the good things about using sampled kicks is you can be quite creative with the EQ and not be afraid to use it. One thing I really got watching this video too was the lovely low level they were working at all the time. Low digital levels inside Studio One I mean but healthy SPL levels in the room. They were no where near 0dB FS at any stage. Even by the time whole drum mixes were present on drumbuses, the main outs were still clear and had plenty of room to bring all the other stuff in. By the time they had it all in there the main outs were just sitting right on the ref level rms wise that is. Peaks still well shy of 0dB FS. Sensible. Hearing digital at its best.
 
I know what you mean about how some machines deliver the right sounding kick out of the box.  Things like 808 and 909 and 707 etc  They all did.  But think of it as these days there are many more options in terms of kick sounds and then there are the millions of combinations of layering them up as well.  It is only natural that in some case the EQ's might get a little out of control and might need taming in right at the source.
 
No harm in getting things sounding great at the source.  It is still good advice even for all electronic productions.  Try using HPF on the low end of the kick sound and you also have slope options as well.  You might try using a slow slope eg 6 dB/Oct and try moving the cutoff freq higher up, that way you will tame the low end of a kick sound rather slowly or smoothly.  But then again try a very steep slope eg 48 dB/Oct and try setting the cutoff quite lowish so as to let most of the right energy through and remove unwanted deep sub type stuff.  Both are equal and effective approaches to use of a HPF.  Finding the right approach for your kick sound is the key.  Sometimes just plain shelving works better too.
 
And if you are layering kicks try to use different sounds to form the overall kick sound. eg some low end thump combined with mid range pop and some top end transient. Try balancing those elemenets too so as to get the right amount of everything in your total kick sound. That is the very cool thing about layered kick sounds. While ALL the music is playing too you can go back in and tweak the layers to suit the music a little more.
 
Use a small mono speaker down at low volume too to give the real info about your overall balance and how well the kick still stands up, even with all the bottom end of your mix out of the equation. You still need some mid range and top end energy to convey the kick parts while in poor low end listening environments. The small speaker will stop you from using kicks that are too thumpy and only work with big low end systems.

Thanks for all the feedback so far.  

I thought I would make an example of what I am talking about here.   
 
https://soundcloud.com/onlyroomforrobots/demo2
 
The kick I feel fit nicely in the mix, but at the end of the clip, I left only the drums, and that's when the kick I feel becomes a bit overbearing.

I know when I hear professional music and the music cuts out, that the drums don't have this effect.

Does anyone else hear what I am talking about?
 
Thanks,
Adam

That music is short and sweet.  Actually listening to that I get the feeling the drum machine sounds need to be a bit lighter and more delicate. (kick especially)  In some ways you have created a kick that does not fit that groove so well and is not such a great sound anyway.  It is a bit too strong in certain areas.  I would be thinking of rebuilding the kick from scratch and making it still positive and present but a little more delicate in the process if you get what I mean.
 
The kick needs more interest right at the start of the sound (ie transient) and less going on in the meat of the sound.  When you do that you will have the right balance of kick transient to the rest of the kick sound.
 

Oh I just threw that together in like 3 minutes, just to get the idea across of what my trouble is :)

I know the drum sounds were a bit harsh in the mix, BUT the kick was sooo much more punchy when solo.  I was wondering what the normal process would be to make it sound "constant" throughout the pieces.

I think your problem is automation, Adam...or the lack thereof. Jonesey told you the right info from the beginning in my opinion. When you eq something when solo'd up, you get a much different outcome once you add all the other instrumentation in. To me, that mix you posted up didn't seem bad at all. Maybe I'm just getting to be less of a stickler these days and only look for problem areas, but I had no problems with that mix until the end when the drums were alone.
 
Now, what I'd do if I were you? I'd automate on anything that needs to be alone on its own. If that song had the drums come in by themselves, I'd high pass that kick so that it wouldn't rumble as much by itself. I do this for every instrument in my mix when it makes a solo appearance. If a guitar sound of mine is all by itself to start a song, the eq will look one way. Once the song starts, the eq changes via automation so that the guitar sound fits with the mix and doesn't FIGHT with the mix.
 
As far as your comment about the company's making kicks/drums that work right out of the box.....I believe they have given people just that. Half of the mixes you hear on Youtube are mixes where people just used drum modules with little tweaks. If most of them had to mic up and record a real drum kit, they would fail miserably because the drum sounds of today are so good, no one can really totally fail by using one unless they ruin the sound with excessive compression or eq.
 
I too high pass just about every kick I have ever used UNLESS the kick just simply doesn't need it. I'm not one that messes with an eq extensively if the sound doesn't call for it. Especially when using these drum sounds of today. To me, they are SOO good coming out of the box, most home studio hobby guys would be lost if they had to actually dial in a real drum that wasn't recorded so good. See that's the thing...with these newer modules, the recordings of the samples are so good, the fail factor is so low, a person fails if they ruin the sound due to being clueless.
 
This is why programs like EZDrummer have done so well. They sound good and are affordable. BUT, because of those two things....everyone has the same/similar drum sound and they really haven't learned a thing about recording. Now you can even buy the kits people have assembled. How long before there's an automated bot that listens to your voice and creates the exact kit and sound you want? LOL!
 
The same for drum machine type sounds in my opinion. They already have a voice that is all their own. You either high pass it, or play around with the low end and then mess with some transient attack. If you recorded a real drum, you'd find that if you didn't get the recording right, you'd end up messing with more than just a high pass. You'd be messing with all the stuff in between as well and let me tell you, it's not very fun. These sounds we have today are a breeze to work with in my opinion. With little to no tweaking, it makes people sound like they are seasoned pro's. Heck, if you're successful with a drum module on a song, you can save all your settings and it's there for you every time. This won't work on a real kit because even if you took pictures of your mic placement and taped all your stands while writing everything down, tomorrow when you mic up again, it will sound different. So no template of eq's or compression will work right out of the box. But on these modules and drum machine sounds....brother, we have the world in our hands. :)
 
Just do the automation thing if you want something to play by itself, and then change the eq curve for when the instrument plays in a mix. This is how everyone else is doing it also. They don't just come up with one eq sound and go with it....they may have 3 different eq's for an instrument depending on what may be going on. But for sure, any time an instrument is by itself, it's a good idea to eq it for that "all alone sound". :) Good luck.
 
-Danny

Jeff, I did mis-speak. It's technically not a gated sinewave oscillator, it was a damped (low-Q) sinewave oscillator.
 
I did not own an 808, but I owned two other Roland drum machines back in the day that were very similar. In those days I made a point of acquiring service manuals and schematics for every piece of gear I had. I distinctly remember studying the schematic and noting how simple (but clever) the circuitry was. Here's a modern equivalent (the 808 used discrete transistors rather than op-amps):
 

Jeff Evans
That music is short and sweet.  Actually listening to that I get the feeling the drum machine sounds need to be a bit lighter and more delicate. (kick especially)  In some ways you have created a kick that does not fit that groove so well and is not such a great sound anyway.  It is a bit too strong in certain areas.  I would be thinking of rebuilding the kick from scratch and making it still positive and present but a little more delicate in the process if you get what I mean.
 
The kick needs more interest right at the start of the sound (ie transient) and less going on in the meat of the sound.  When you do that you will have the right balance of kick transient to the rest of the kick sound.
 

Jeff,

That's actually one of my biggest problems.  I don't know how to make the drum sound more light and gentle.  This is my biggest gripe with synth drum so far!
 
How would you go about it?
 

Danny Danzi
I think your problem is automation, Adam...or the lack thereof. Jonesey told you the right info from the beginning in my opinion. When you eq something when solo'd up, you get a much different outcome once you add all the other instrumentation in. To me, that mix you posted up didn't seem bad at all. Maybe I'm just getting to be less of a stickler these days and only look for problem areas, but I had no problems with that mix until the end when the drums were alone.
 
Now, what I'd do if I were you? I'd automate on anything that needs to be alone on its own. If that song had the drums come in by themselves, I'd high pass that kick so that it wouldn't rumble as much by itself. I do this for every instrument in my mix when it makes a solo appearance. If a guitar sound of mine is all by itself to start a song, the eq will look one way. Once the song starts, the eq changes via automation so that the guitar sound fits with the mix and doesn't FIGHT with the mix.
 
As far as your comment about the company's making kicks/drums that work right out of the box.....I believe they have given people just that. Half of the mixes you hear on Youtube are mixes where people just used drum modules with little tweaks. If most of them had to mic up and record a real drum kit, they would fail miserably because the drum sounds of today are so good, no one can really totally fail by using one unless they ruin the sound with excessive compression or eq.
 
I too high pass just about every kick I have ever used UNLESS the kick just simply doesn't need it. I'm not one that messes with an eq extensively if the sound doesn't call for it. Especially when using these drum sounds of today. To me, they are SOO good coming out of the box, most home studio hobby guys would be lost if they had to actually dial in a real drum that wasn't recorded so good. See that's the thing...with these newer modules, the recordings of the samples are so good, the fail factor is so low, a person fails if they ruin the sound due to being clueless.
 
This is why programs like EZDrummer have done so well. They sound good and are affordable. BUT, because of those two things....everyone has the same/similar drum sound and they really haven't learned a thing about recording. Now you can even buy the kits people have assembled. How long before there's an automated bot that listens to your voice and creates the exact kit and sound you want? LOL!
 
The same for drum machine type sounds in my opinion. They already have a voice that is all their own. You either high pass it, or play around with the low end and then mess with some transient attack. If you recorded a real drum, you'd find that if you didn't get the recording right, you'd end up messing with more than just a high pass. You'd be messing with all the stuff in between as well and let me tell you, it's not very fun. These sounds we have today are a breeze to work with in my opinion. With little to no tweaking, it makes people sound like they are seasoned pro's. Heck, if you're successful with a drum module on a song, you can save all your settings and it's there for you every time. This won't work on a real kit because even if you took pictures of your mic placement and taped all your stands while writing everything down, tomorrow when you mic up again, it will sound different. So no template of eq's or compression will work right out of the box. But on these modules and drum machine sounds....brother, we have the world in our hands. :)
 
Just do the automation thing if you want something to play by itself, and then change the eq curve for when the instrument plays in a mix. This is how everyone else is doing it also. They don't just come up with one eq sound and go with it....they may have 3 different eq's for an instrument depending on what may be going on. But for sure, any time an instrument is by itself, it's a good idea to eq it for that "all alone sound". :) Good luck.
 
-Danny

 
Danny,

Thanks for the reply man.  I will look into automating the EQ as the song plays.   I think maybe I was under the wrong impression.  I mean when you see a band live and a drum solo starts, i don't think they are turning down the low frequencies of the kick on the fly.   I guess that's where I was coming from.

Just to add, The 808 had a "tone" and "decay" on a all of the main sounds including the kick. So any given sample would not represent the almost infinite possibilities the original had. This is why so many people seek them out and will settle for no less. 
I still have a Roland 505, it looks like hell and the face plate is all gooey from the labels that fell off 20 years ago. I had this diagram of how to re-wire it so each sound could have it's own output. It was the low end version of the 808 but to me the sounds are very similar.
Some one man band history: 
It used a cassette tape data back up system like Amiga did. It would only hold 4 or 5 songs in memory. You then "recorded" the memory dump to a cassette. Program another 4 songs etc. I would be able to play these 4 songs per set that had the full song patterns. The rest you were stuck with only one pattern or manually change it.  During the set break you would dump the tape with the next 4 songs to the machine and cross your fingers that it worked. When the Atari came out with a MIDI port I was one of the first in line with the idea to drive the 505. When I found out I could also add bass lines! All I can say is we are spoiled rotten these days and no one should complain. 
 

aglewis723

Danny Danzi
I think your problem is automation, Adam...or the lack thereof. Jonesey told you the right info from the beginning in my opinion. When you eq something when solo'd up, you get a much different outcome once you add all the other instrumentation in. To me, that mix you posted up didn't seem bad at all. Maybe I'm just getting to be less of a stickler these days and only look for problem areas, but I had no problems with that mix until the end when the drums were alone.
 
Now, what I'd do if I were you? I'd automate on anything that needs to be alone on its own. If that song had the drums come in by themselves, I'd high pass that kick so that it wouldn't rumble as much by itself. I do this for every instrument in my mix when it makes a solo appearance. If a guitar sound of mine is all by itself to start a song, the eq will look one way. Once the song starts, the eq changes via automation so that the guitar sound fits with the mix and doesn't FIGHT with the mix.
 
As far as your comment about the company's making kicks/drums that work right out of the box.....I believe they have given people just that. Half of the mixes you hear on Youtube are mixes where people just used drum modules with little tweaks. If most of them had to mic up and record a real drum kit, they would fail miserably because the drum sounds of today are so good, no one can really totally fail by using one unless they ruin the sound with excessive compression or eq.
 
I too high pass just about every kick I have ever used UNLESS the kick just simply doesn't need it. I'm not one that messes with an eq extensively if the sound doesn't call for it. Especially when using these drum sounds of today. To me, they are SOO good coming out of the box, most home studio hobby guys would be lost if they had to actually dial in a real drum that wasn't recorded so good. See that's the thing...with these newer modules, the recordings of the samples are so good, the fail factor is so low, a person fails if they ruin the sound due to being clueless.
 
This is why programs like EZDrummer have done so well. They sound good and are affordable. BUT, because of those two things....everyone has the same/similar drum sound and they really haven't learned a thing about recording. Now you can even buy the kits people have assembled. How long before there's an automated bot that listens to your voice and creates the exact kit and sound you want? LOL!
 
The same for drum machine type sounds in my opinion. They already have a voice that is all their own. You either high pass it, or play around with the low end and then mess with some transient attack. If you recorded a real drum, you'd find that if you didn't get the recording right, you'd end up messing with more than just a high pass. You'd be messing with all the stuff in between as well and let me tell you, it's not very fun. These sounds we have today are a breeze to work with in my opinion. With little to no tweaking, it makes people sound like they are seasoned pro's. Heck, if you're successful with a drum module on a song, you can save all your settings and it's there for you every time. This won't work on a real kit because even if you took pictures of your mic placement and taped all your stands while writing everything down, tomorrow when you mic up again, it will sound different. So no template of eq's or compression will work right out of the box. But on these modules and drum machine sounds....brother, we have the world in our hands. :)
 
Just do the automation thing if you want something to play by itself, and then change the eq curve for when the instrument plays in a mix. This is how everyone else is doing it also. They don't just come up with one eq sound and go with it....they may have 3 different eq's for an instrument depending on what may be going on. But for sure, any time an instrument is by itself, it's a good idea to eq it for that "all alone sound". :) Good luck.
 
-Danny

 
Danny,

Thanks for the reply man.  I will look into automating the EQ as the song plays.   I think maybe I was under the wrong impression.  I mean when you see a band live and a drum solo starts, i don't think they are turning down the low frequencies of the kick on the fly.   I guess that's where I was coming from.

I'm with ya. The difference with live is....it's a different type of fidelity. It's way more forgiving due to the room, the crowd noise and everything else that goes on with a live presentation. And, most live shows (even in my little band) we are using automated consoles. Actually Adam, the pro bands DO make eq changes for instruments that are all alone. Especially with the automation control we have with these newer live consoles.
 
For example, when I do my solo by myself in my set, *I* eq'd my tone from the console and saved it months ago. I use the same mic's and put them on the same spots for my cabs all the time. I have things marked...so I just grab the light in my cell phone and mic the cabs. But the sound the sound man gives me for my band sound is different than my sound when I do a solo all by myself. I have a little more low end and a little more mids when I'm doing my all alone solo. I'm also relying on my own effects for that so all the effects on the board for me are dead.
 
But to really answer the question as to whether or not people are being anal to do what I'm saying....I would say it depends on the sound. If we have a kick drum that needs to be thinned out live because the bass guitar has a lot of low end in it, you better believe they will add more low end girth to the kick if the drummer does a solo or has a spot where the drums may be on their own. It would be senseless NOT to enhance when needed, know what I mean?
 
See, when we mix, the hardest thing is making all the instruments communicate with each other to form the music bed. So we definitely need sounds that work well with each other. However, when an instruments needs to shine on its own, there really isn't anything special that needs to be done other than "does it sound good or doesn't it?" When things are by themselves, they are not competing with the others. So you can add more lows, more effects or even more mids. But when the band comes back in, those things need to be adjusted. With one touch of a button on say a Behringer X32 or something, the eq on whatever you touched instantly goes back to where it was in the band mix. I'd actually be upset if my sound man just left everything alone and didn't enhance things to make them come to life when they play all alone. At the end of the day, that is the sound man's job. Any sound man that just sets it and forgets it isn't a sound man...he's just a feedback controller and even that is being generous. :)
 
-Danny