Space, this is such a great thread bro! Everything you mentioned in your post was the reason for my problems as well. I'll give you some info and will try to keep this short...umm....wait...that's always too challenging for me....ok, I'll try my best to keep it short. :)

I was into YES, Chicago, Gentle Giant, some of the trippy Alice Cooper stuff like the Killers album, UFO, and anything that was musically stimulating. I was a drummer when I was into all that stuff and was playing guitar a bit on the side. When the 80's hit, of course I got the 80's bug due to insane guitar players like Eddie Van Halen, Randy Rhoads, Yngwie Malmsteen etc. But I didn't dig 80's music. All I liked were the guitar sounds and the killer licks and leads they played. I tried to apply this sound and those licks to my prog background....Yngwie helped a lot on this because as repetitive as he may be, his first few albums were incredibly prog with some killer playing by all the members in his band.

But I just couldn't ever find a singer no matter how hard I tried. Every time it was the same man. "Your band is great, but unfortunately, your singer sucks!" Iron Maiden came out and of course this was a bit more prog, yet not as technical as YES or King Crimson...so we took a bit of their style with us. By this time, my band and I were the closest to Dream Theater as far as our sound and style minus some of the timing changes and licks they do "because they can". Everything we did had a purpose and was more for the songs over showcasing how good we could play. It was a great band...way before its time. But again, no singers could do our stuff.

So one day, we find this guy who comes in and totally rips our faces off. The band was complete and making a huge noise on the circuit. Before long we were opening up for bands that later on got major deals like Cinderella and Britny Foxx. We were super prog compared to those guys...but when we took the stage, people appreciated what we did. After a while, our singer came to us and said he really wasn't down with the style we were playing. I'll put it this way...this guy was sooo Steve Perry, I think he'd do a better job than the guy Arnel they have right now. Our singer would get up on stage with cover bands and do Journey songs blowing people away.

He mentioned to us that we needed to be more commercial or he was going to leave. At first we said "ok, don't let the door hit you in the butt" but then we thought about things a bit. No bands in our area were getting any deals or acclaim doing prog stuff. Not one. We had the best club in south Jersey to play in where Bon Jovi was hanging out at times, Ozzy was there a few times, and like I said, Cinderella and Britny Foxx both got signed out of this club. A little while later, a band called Heavens Edge and a band called Tangier got major deals there as well.

So we decided to go the commerical route. I hated it man. It was the hardest thing for me to grasp. I blamed in on Journey and all the bands you mentioned. LOL! However, it was super easy for me to come up with complex licks and weird timings. It was a challenge to write "the almighty hook" that was so big, you could land Orca with it. So instead of cry about my short-comings, I embarked on this commercial endeavor and started listening to things that were loaded with hooks and worked on my guitar phrasings as well. This made me listen to pop music to where I learned to play the lead vocal lines on my guitar to teach me about hooks and commercial phrasing.

This is turn really fed my inspiration and the next thing you know, I was on a mission and loving every minute of commerciality and didn't miss prog for a second. To this day, it's all about the hook for me. I have tried to put in little spots of musicality within my music, but I am of the belief of never losing a common listener due to insane licks, tricks or timing that messes up their foot taps. I will at some point, do an all prog album to blow it all out of my system because I still do enjoy that a bit...but for the stuff I write that makes me a few bucks with my Euro and Japanese labels, I keep it rockin', commercial and make it memorable. With that in mind...once the hook is there, you can really do anything you want musically as long as it doesn't go too far astray from the style you have been marketed as. My new album I'm working on is a bit more proggy...along the lines of a commercial Dream Theater/Whitesnake ala Still of the Night with grooves and some good old groove oriented Led Zep. But the hooks are pretty massive so we still do what we're supposed to do and to be honest man, I love the hook aspect.

I'm not saying "Poison" bubble gum hooks....but enough of a hook to keep a song in your mind with a little musicality to go with it. Nothing too extreme, yet nothing too light and airy. The coolest thing for me is to get that hook moment. It's better than any crazy lick, arpeggio, tap or riff I have ever come up with. If everyone could write insane hooks...we'd have a lot more stars in the world. It's a great challenge for me and one I just can't get enough of. I now extend this hook thing to my clients and people I produce for as well as some of the side projects I'm involved in. Sometimes I may go over-board with a hook that may make a tune a little too poppy, but that's ok...it's easy to scale it back...but it's even better to have the hook idea. What sucks is not being able to come up with a hook at all and pretty much show off a bunch of musical wankage.

Sure, some people love that and live for it. I think it's great but for me...it just wasn't challenging enough. There are loads of people who are incredible musicians that can showcase their incredible talent. But to me, as much as I love that stuff, after a while, it gets a bit old...like I just need a little more. Something within the song that climaxes other than just the cool players behind it, know what I mean? Look at YES...technical prowess to die for...but they never left you without a hook. That's what I'm talking about. Back up vocals that were always stellar, arrangements that made you tilt your head sideways and say "are you kidding me?!" That's success right there to me and more proof that you can showcase your chops to the fullest yet still deliver with a memorable hook that sends a message.

So much for short reply...lol...sorry...but I share the way you feel to an extent...but I'd be lying if I told you I didn't welcome the commercial aspect as well. :) Great thread brother.

-Danny

To paraphrase Mr. Gilbert, "You can take Danny out of the 80's, but you can't take the 80's out of Danny!"

Hi,
 
Sorry ... can't reply to this as Moshkaie ... he doesn't exist.
 
I never left. 2k LP's and 2k CD's and I am replacing as much of the LP collection for CD's as possible and money allows. At 61, the heaviness of the albums is too much for an old foggie to handle, but I can say, easily, that the music lives inside me, and I remember it well.
 
In the early days, it was not called progressive, although in London some journalist used that to showcase Edgar Broughton Band and a whole bunch of other bands, and apparently it was the start of the term.
 
The term, as used to day, is **** and crap and disgusting ... no one, not even Bapu or Mooch, writes music for those rules. One writes music because it is what they feel and they see and what they want to do. Period.
 
And, the worst of it all, the music was important and meaningful to the time and place and it was the VOICE of a generation. A generation that the media made a point of killing in every way possible, but ... it was hard to ignore the money making potential of a few artists ... and the hippocrisy that it all became surrounded with as evidence by media-darling bands and hits. It took away from the music itself, in MY book and I accept that I may be wrong on this one. The "voice" of most progressive music today? ... is not about the time and place, but some inocuous idea and thought whose meaning most of you don't give a cahoot about anyway. Yeah ... let's hear it ... DT's lyrics suc!
 
Music, in history, if you look at it from a higher perspective, has always been "progressive" and nothing has changed. You don't go listen to Beethoven because it is "romantic"! You don't listen to Bach because it is "baroque"! You don't listen to Stravinsky because it is "modern"! ... you listen to it all because it is MUSIC.
 
The experiments and all that which is considered dead in the 80's and 90's is not nice in my book. Music always progresses and continues and others do different things. Mike Oldfield continued. Ryuichi Sakamoto continued. Vangelis Pappathanassiou continued. Klaus Schulze continued. Tangerine Dream/Edgar Froese continued ... and in the end, these folks WERE the real progressive ones that kept on experimenting and creating new music. But what we're talking about is a commercial thing that does not have a whole lot of progressive anything, and is as vaccuous and vain as most rock'n'roll is that is shown on most star magazines!
 
For all intents and purposes, a band from LA, made KC's first 4 albums sound bad and repetitive after the first one. If you really want to see and hear where "progressive" could have gone that popular music will not allow it to, perhaps you want to spend a few minutes enjoying Djam Karet's first 4 albums ... and realize ... hmmm ... this is progressive ... the rest? quite boring!
 
My main concern with most "progressive" ****, is that it never happened in NY, SF, LA, Tokyo, Paris, Berlin (even influenced the Beatles) and other places. And almost all the definitions are London based styles that do not accept a lot of other things out there that deserve the credit. SF never made it because too many folks were ripped! NY never made it because too many of them were too busy hustling. LA never made it because the stars were too ripped and died too young! London had the press and media to help these survive. America did not because it is always about the stars and the advertising. The veritable Citizen Kane! ... that no one cares about!
 
This is the result 40 years later, because no one wants to think/say that psychedelia and experimentation SURVIVED ... instead of being killed. How much fun it is to see a whole bunch of idiots and kids getting stoned and listen to music and roll around naked ... all it is is a home movie of your kids? ... is that all you remember and know? ... see my point?
 
Read the book review I have of Patti Smith ... try reading that for that matter ... so you can have a really good sense how the arts, music and everything else work together --- and THAT is the true meaning of "progressive" and "learning" ... not some combination of odd times and notes and bull.
 
I love the music ... as much as Albinoni, The CHB, or anyone else ... and the terminology be damned, because in the end all it is, is some commercial design to help you find/identify/buy the stuff ... and I am kind of ok with that ... but I can tell you that I was telling Daevid/Gong in 1995 that they needed to get a really big Internet Presence, and 6 months later Johnny was running it and it still runs!
 
It's about the music itself ... and I really do not like to think that one is "progressive" and the other is not. They are all different.
 
 

Moshkiae


and THAT is the true meaning of "progressive" and "learning" ... not some combination of odd times and notes and bull.
 
   
 

I recall no bulls in the making of any prog music.


Well maybe that Pink Floyd album (Garanimals?)

I am a massive daevid Allen fan and have every major gong release and his solo stuff and soft machine.  Gong blended over the top trippiness with jazz space rock fusion. Ozrick tentacles owes a ton to him and Steve hillage. 

Just finishing up ****es Brew.

About to launch into Sun Ra...

Miles was more experimental jazz no?

space_cowboy


I am a massive daevid Allen fan and have every major gong release and his solo stuff and soft machine.  Gong blended over the top trippiness with jazz space rock fusion. Ozrick tentacles owes a ton to him and Steve hillage. 

David and Gilly are two of the best Beat poets left these days ... I guess I should state that Patti Smith is the other ... but then, rock music listeners are not usually well known for knowing poetry or painting, or theater!
 
OT are really good, although I think they have gone steadilly downhil since it became the Wynne Family Band. I thought the keyboards and wizardry all the way through Seaweed was really good, and then it died. Still had some great pieces to listen to, but the band lost a lot of its "ethereal" and fun side when Champignon left (John on the flutes and such), which took away some of the trippyness in them. For my ears now, this band is just nice music ... but then ... the CHB is more fun for me to listen to! ... not as much improvised material, though!

I think he explained it this way:

"I reinvented music... 5 times"

It sounds boastful... until you listen to all the recordings.

:-)

And ****es brew spawned weather report and other jazz bands.