2014/01/25 18:29:52
sharke
I pretty much know the guitar fretboard inside and out, in that I can take any note on any string and immediately know where all the intervals are in relation to that note. In this way I can construct chords and scales on the fly. It's served me well on the guitar.

Recently though I've begun to realize that I really should know each key inside out in terms of note names, not shapes on a fretboard. This has become especially apparent since I started messing with keyboards and piano rolls. In other words, I'd like to know in an instant what a b13 in the key of Eb is, etc. Trouble is I balk at the idea of learning all of the intervals in all 12 keys by rote. I just wouldn't know where to start.

Any seasoned jazzers have any tips?
2014/01/26 01:35:06
Kev999
When I'm using the Piano Roll, I tend to just look at the relative positions of the notes and forget about what key I'm working in. A chord or phrase in PRV looks the same regardless of key.
 
2014/01/26 01:41:34
The Band19
There is no H, how hard could it be? (I told my son this just today during his first real music lesson :-) He's 10? I've been bugging him "gently" all of his life, son when are you going to pick up an instrument? Today he told me "piano" So we downloaded an Imagine Dragons song, and I showed him how it was 4 chords? :-) And I showed him how you could play those up, down, in the middle, etc... "There is no H" I told him. It goes ABCDEFG, and then there's the sharps and flats, blah blah blah, but at a high level? It's really simple... The rest is just practice :-)
 
It was one of my greatest joys... (he's 10) Watching him figure it out? Son, it starts in D, then it goes to A, then Bm? Then to G.... (and then it repeats.) So if you learn the pattern (I said) you can learn the whole song? Because "it repeats..."
 
Before that I went through the whole ABCDEFG thing with him, and explained (in summary) how chords work, major and minor triads. It was a lot for him to soak in on his first day? Afterwards, I told him I was proud of him (and I was!) 
 
He's a good boy. 
 
(Imagine Dragons "Demons")
2014/01/26 02:34:20
sharke
Kev999
When I'm using the Piano Roll, I tend to just look at the relative positions of the notes and forget about what key I'm working in. A chord or phrase in PRV looks the same regardless of key.
 

 
Yeah I realize that, but the PRV isn't everything, I mean I'd quite like to be able to construct chords on a stave without having to count each interval or without constantly referring back to my mental image of the guitar fretboard. I'm already at the stage where I'm composing parts in the PRV by ear and I have absolutely no idea what chords I'm writing. Not that there's anything wrong with that because ultimately the ear should be the final judge of everything, but theory also plays a part in composition as well.
2014/01/26 02:35:47
sharke
The Band19
There is no H, how hard could it be? (I told my son this just today during his first real music lesson :-) He's 10? I've been bugging him "gently" all of his life, son when are you going to pick up an instrument? Today he told me "piano" So we downloaded an Imagine Dragons song, and I showed him how it was 4 chords? :-) And I showed him how you could play those up, down, in the middle, etc... "There is no H" I told him. It goes ABCDEFG, and then there's the sharps and flats, blah blah blah, but at a high level? It's really simple... The rest is just practice :-)
 
It was one of my greatest joys... (he's 10) Watching him figure it out? Son, it starts in D, then it goes to A, then Bm? Then to G.... (and then it repeats.) So if you learn the pattern (I said) you can learn the whole song? Because "it repeats..."
 
Before that I went through the whole ABCDEFG thing with him, and explained (in summary) how chords work, major and minor triads. It was a lot for him to soak in on his first day? Afterwards, I told him I was proud of him (and I was!) 
 
He's a good boy. 
 
(Imagine Dragons "Demons")




He's at that age where you could tell him the notes of a Bm chord and he'd remember them for the rest of his life. I'm jealous!
2014/01/26 02:43:20
sharke
The furthest I ever got with this was when I was learning the big-band comping style on guitar. I learned these 3 note chord fingerings on the low E, D and G strings. For each chord, I learned every inversion. They're great sounding fingerings. I'd go through the cycle of fourths, playing all 3 (or 4) inversions of each chord. Major, minor, maj7, min7, 6th, min6th etc. I started to learn the notes of all the major chords in every key, so that I knew the bass note in each inversion. But once I'd learned the major chords I guess I kind of got overwhelmed with the whole rote learning thing and gave up. I guess what I'm looking for is some kind of system which helps you learn this stuff. 
 
 
2014/01/26 22:25:31
timidi
" what a b13 in the key of Eb is,"
 
Um, er, ........ What??
 
So, in Eb talk, you got B, Eb, Gb, A, Ab
Figurin that in the key of Eb is well, um maybe an Eb b5#5sus. Maybe. um. idunno..
2014/01/26 22:36:39
sharke
timidi
" what a b13 in the key of Eb is,"
 
Um, er, ........ What??
 
So, in Eb talk, you got B, Eb, Gb, A, Ab
Figurin that in the key of Eb is well, um maybe an Eb b5#5sus. Maybe. um. idunno..


A b13 is the same as an augmented 5th (talking intervals here, not chords). So in Eb that would be B. I had to picture a guitar fretboard to figure it out.
2014/01/26 23:03:43
gswitz
Sharke, I do the same. I think about the guitar to find the names of notes I need. I know the shapes/scales/intervals as they are on the guitar. So I calculate to the notes I need, like my 10 year old multiplying by adding 7+7+7.
 
And yes, it would be faster to have it all memorized. I don't have it memorized.
 
I remember a guitar teacher telling me that if I just keep practicing I'll get to the point where I can sight-read. But now, 20+ years later, I'm still using FACE and EGBDF to find the tones. I'm faster at it now, but I'm still calculating.
 
A simpler thing to memorize is how many sharps and flats in all the keys and I don't memorize that either, but that would be handy to always know. I usually just go to wikipedia when I want to know. The circle of fifths is something I also calculate my way around.
2014/01/27 00:54:06
sharke
I think the circle of fifths is pretty easy to memorize if you incorporate it into all of your technique exercises - for example, when practicing scales go through the cycle over and over. And yes, memorizing the number of sharps and flats in each key is relatively easy. Trouble is, even if you know your key signatures, you're still going to be counting intervals. I would just love the kind of intimate familiarity with chord and scale tones to hear "major 6th from G#" and instantly think "F" without having to work it out. I would love to pop into a horn player's mind for a few minutes to get an idea of what they're thinking when they're soloing over some changes. 
 
I'm OK with sight reading, I took it up about 12 years ago and can sight read my way through Bach fugues with multiple parts now. I'm convinced that's because I played the recorder at school when I was 7 or 8. Even though I'd long forgotten the notes on the stave since then, they must have been stashed away in the back of my mind somewhere. One thing I cannot imagine ever being able to do however is reading treble and bass staves at the same time like piano players. But then again I remember not being able to imagine how anyone could fingerpick separate bass & melody parts together on guitar, yet now I can play ragtime standing on my head and I have little trouble with those Bach fugues that often have 3 or 4 things going on at once. 
 
I also cannot imagine reading Chinese....
© 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1

Use My Existing Forum Account

Use My Social Media Account