The last concerts I've been to all seem to have a lot of low end mud. As much as I like lows I want to be able to hear bass, gtr and kick separate.
 
Is this something new or have I missed something (happened before), or just bad FOH mixing?

Bad FOH mixing or more importantly the tuning of the PA into the room. Most live sound engineers and I say MOST are useless idiots and they have WAY too much bottom end. Most of them have no idea about how a balanced bottom end should sound. Many are deaf as a result of hearing too much bottom end hence they are pushing it harder all the time because they are not hearing it the way we are.

If the bottom end is excessive then the rest of the spectrum is not heard very well then. By taking away most and I mean most of the bottom end crap that many live engineers think is good, the mids and the highs then sound great and louder. All this by taking something away, a concept many live engineers have no concept about. The power amps are all have a much easier time now as well because they don't have to do anywhere near as much work and the whole system will sound better.

Who are these people and how do they find themselves in important positions of doing important mixes but they are incompetent at just that. Many have no skills or talent or listening experience otherwise they would know what a really well balanced sound is like.

Many push overall FOH levels way too high as well not realising that the magic excitement level is somewhere below where they are operating most of the time.

I use Steely Dan's 'Everything Must Go' to set up and tune a live PA into the room. The bottom end on that CD is perfect, end of story. As soon as I play it on a big live system, 99 times out of 100 the bottom end is WAY too loud. After fixing it the PA usually and most often sounds excellent. Most FOH EQ settings are like a dogs hind leg as well and usually after setting that all flat the PA often sounds great which means it was set and installed properly. 

I know everything I am saying here is true because when a serious live act comes out to Australia eg Return to Forever or something of this calibre the mix I hear is exactly I described. Perfect with the perfect amount of bottom end. No mud just pure clarity right across the spectrum.

I think what has changed today is that PA's can produce so much bottom end and so easily at very high SPL levels. So the live engineers think they have to use it and all of it too but in fact the opposite is true. Just go for a very natural sounding bottom end and the PA will have a very easy time of it as a result.

I don't think it's a new thing.  This lot always sounded muddy.
 

I wonder where they were teached that stuff anyway?!

I learned the hard way, just a little experience in my musical places. And after that just listen and adjust.

Did sound last Saturday in a rather "concrete" venue and got some nice reviews.

Jonbouy


I don't think it's a new thing.  This lot always sounded muddy.
 

Love the socks on this guy ------^^^^^^ 


Must be the dulcimer player

Live sound is part of the sound engineering course I teach but we don't let the students any where near that until they have done a fair bit of studio work sitting in front of very expensive monitors and getting a real appreciation of what a well balanced sound is like. I think live engineers that have come from some sort of studio background are often better because of this fact alone.

We have a theatre with a fairly decent PA with subs etc and we spend quite a bit of time practising tuning the PA to the room. I like to take the students into the studio as well to become very familiar with the reference CD and then into the live room for a direct comparison.

And if you are in a difficult room like Alex was recently which part of the spectrum do you think controlling will give a better result, yes you guessed it the bottom end. And keep the volume down too, that helps a lot. Sound checks should NOT be at full volume either. Too much sound (in the sound check) swamps onto the stage making it harder for the musicians to hear themselves and they start turning themselves UP which is sort of not what we want.

Jeff Evans


Bad FOH mixing or more importantly the tuning of the PA into the room. Most live sound engineers and I say MOST are useless idiots and they have WAY too much bottom end. Most of them have no idea about how a balanced bottom end should sound. Many are deaf as a result of hearing too much bottom end hence they are pushing it harder all the time because they are not hearing it the way we are.

If the bottom end is excessive then the rest of the spectrum is not heard very well then. By taking away most and I mean most of the bottom end crap that many live engineers think is good, the mids and the highs then sound great and louder. All this by taking something away, a concept many live engineers have no concept about. The power amps are all have a much easier time now as well because they don't have to do anywhere near as much work and the whole system will sound better.

Who are these people and how do they find themselves in important positions of doing important mixes but they are incompetent at just that. Many have no skills or talent or listening experience otherwise they would know what a really well balanced sound is like.

Many push overall FOH levels way too high as well not realising that the magic excitement level is somewhere below where they are operating most of the time.

I use Steely Dan's 'Everything Must Go' to set up and tune a live PA into the room. The bottom end on that CD is perfect, end of story. As soon as I play it on a big live system, 99 times out of 100 the bottom end is WAY too loud. After fixing it the PA usually and most often sounds excellent. Most FOH EQ settings are like a dogs hind leg as well and usually after setting that all flat the PA often sounds great which means it was set and installed properly. 

I know everything I am saying here is true because when a serious live act comes out to Australia eg Return to Forever or something of this calibre the mix I hear is exactly I described. Perfect with the perfect amount of bottom end. No mud just pure clarity right across the spectrum.

I think what has changed today is that PA's can produce so much bottom end and so easily at very high SPL levels. So the live engineers think they have to use it and all of it too but in fact the opposite is true. Just go for a very natural sounding bottom end and the PA will have a very easy time of it as a result.

First brake: Marillions album Holydays in eden, though the(my) PA, sounded great. Second brake: music from their sound system, low and high that was it.
 
Oh and a lot of flashing lights   Not sure why there are ppl teaching that things like that.
 
 
 
 
 

Jonbouy


I don't think it's a new thing.  This lot always sounded muddy.
 

Crazy, noisy, muddy bugger :)

No... it's not you Alex... 

The last couple of live shows I attended have had horrible sound.  I have not been to many live shows because of it in recent years.

Last big show was a few years back at a Kenny Chesney show.... big outdoor covered arena..... built for concerts and sound.  Nice sized PA...lots of speakers and all the appearances of it being a good show. The pre-concert music being piped through the PA sounded really good..... but it was a much lower level of course. 

The opening acts (2) came on and played and I noticed a lack of any serious attempt at bottom end. But I chalked that up to what I have seen and heard first hand as the opening act on a few live shows myself.... the headliner had the low end cut way down so it would make them sound better when they came on.  (Lack of confidence in their stage act) 

So Chesney hits the stage and still no bottom end.... but I'm thinking.... Oh I know what they're doing... the bass is gonna kick in on the chorus and ...... wait for it.... wait for it.... here comes the chorus........ yeeeeee..... No?  what the funk?  Still no bass..... then a closer look at the big screens and the stage, yeah, they have a bass player and yeah, he looks like he's playing...... and the show went on the entire time like that. 

Oh it was loud.... and while we were back on the grass seating area, it was so cranked that it was about impossible to understand the words if you didn't already know the lyrics to the song. A very disappointing show. About the only part of the show that was reasonable was when Kenny grabbed an acoustic guitar for a song or two..... then, and only then did it even come close to being a decent FOH mix. 

On the other hand.... some of the best sounding concerts I have ever attended have been when the band had the FOH mix at a reasonable level and the PA system was well balanced and not going for any volume records. 

I think maybe the FOH guys think louder is better and when faced with an outdoor stage think it really has to be loud to sound good.   

Personal story: Our band was supplying the PA to an outdoor event. Our PA was quite substantial in size and power to handle the largest venue's we played. Our FOH guy was trying to "fill" the outdoor space and things were running distorted and with little balance and bottom end. I looked over his shoulder and everything was gagged wide open on the board.  During a break, we spoke and I simply asked him to pull the levels down... go for a clean sound.... not try to fill God's outdoor arena since they really don't need to hear it over in the next county. The rest of the show sounded really nice. It actually sounded like a nice stereo system playing in that field. The hardest part was trying to convince the bands on the lineup to trust us and turn the stage volume down.  Those that did sounded good. 

Guitarhacker


............. they really don't need to hear it over in the next county.