• Techniques
  • Good Mics for recording accoutic piano (p.2)
2014/02/04 19:20:38
rebel007
Thanks for your input Bill, this is turning into just the discussion I needed. I think my biggest issue is my piano is placed in a small alcove in one corner of the room, I think I'll eventually have to pull it out into the room as I seem to be getting far too much reflection from the walls to the side and rear.
I have gone ahead and purchased the Rode M5's and I'm happy with the sound I'm getting placing them only a foot or so from the strings with the front open. I also particularly like just opening the top and aiming them into the cavity there. I think it helps eliminate those wall reflections.
I will have a look at the Earthworks system, thanks for that. Being a piano player, it's the one sounds I just have to get right.
As I said, I think I'll have to pull the piano out into the room and try the rear LDC that Jeff has suggested, I have an idea that this may be the way to eliminate, or at least mitigate, all the extraneous piano creaks and bumps that an upright seems to produce. This will be the main piano sound with the SDC mics giving me the string and hammer close up sounds. I very rarely record with loud drums, it's usually a modest jazz kit, or I'll overdub the piano later. Occasionally I'll record with bass., everything else I can overdub.
Sometimes (actually quite a bit) I record the piano while singing, as I've found I can get a better (or more satisfying) vocal performance, so I think what is going to work best is, the front left on and the SDC mics pointing into, or actually, inside the open lid. This also creates less spill into the vocal mic.
I don't have any ribbon mics, is there an argument for using one of these as opposed to a LDC on the rear as the main sound. I'm willing to open the credit card up for this mic, at the moment I'm using an NT1A, but if I can I find better mic I would definitely be willing to make this a priority purchase, I might even hire a few mics to test and see which better suits my piano and room setup.
2014/02/05 13:51:57
rumleymusic
The only problem with ribbons, other than the lack of high frequency response, is they pick up just as much sound from the rear as from the front,  not not the best choice for isolation unless you are in a dead space and everything else is off axis.  The Cascade X15 Lundahl is a great ribbon for the price.  
 
Pianos recordings work best in close quarters with small diaphragm omnis.  I enjoy using a pair of DPA4061's inside the piano, lid closed.  Perfect isolation and still a very open and balanced sound.  Better sounding than the Earthworks solutions IMO.  I have taped them once under an upright piano keyboard and the sound was wonderful, dynamic, sparkly and clear.  They are also brilliant on acoustic guitar, guitar cabinets, upright bass, drums, and any acoustic wind and string instrument.  A real steal for under $1000.  
 
I have a few examples of recordings with these mics here:
http://rumleymusic.com/samples/audio.html
 
They are used as mains on Full Orchestra / A Capella Choir / and String Quartet.
 
The piano solo is Sennheiser MKH8040, good mics, but over twice the price of the DPA's.  
2014/02/05 21:07:59
rebel007
Ok thanks Daniel, I'll look up the DPA4061's. Rode also make NT55's as a matched pair and they can be set at either cardioid or Omni, at $600 a pair I might give them a try too. As I said, price is not too much of an issue for getting the quality I require so I will also look in to the Sennheisers. Thanks for the link I'll have a listen to these as well.
 
I've found using the cardioids I get a slight phase issue on the low frequencies and end up having to realign the waveform to get a bottom end that doesn't sound muddy. I'm not sure if this is somewhat of a compromise though but I'll keep experimenting. Is this an issue anyone else has come across, and does the Omni pattern help mitigate this?
 
Certainly in yesterday's session I struggled to get a clear low end no matter where I positioned the cardioids, and I ended up using just one SDC inside the lid. This gave me a quite acceptable sound but I would still like to get a close sound on both ends of the soundboard, strings and hammers.
I've still yet to move the piano out into the room and try rear miking with a LDC but will get to this eventually.
2014/02/05 21:24:29
Jeff Evans
The rear micing this works well. The thing with having an upright against a wall too is that all the sound is sort of being pushed into a wall and won't really have much room to move around. What I do is move the pinao out from the wall so it is at a 45 degree angle to the wall. But I also put a nice soft baffle in against the wall to stop things not bouncing well off the wall. The bottom end can sound nice at the rear too.
 
As I mentioned though if there are things going on you may need to build a sealed area in behind the piano to keep things out.
 
Daniel those recording are very nice, well done. I have never had great success putting mics inside the lid and closing it but then again I have not used the mics that Daniel has suggested either so that could well be a really nice way to go. I mean putting mics in there and closing the lid could be a very viable option especially for spill. I am not sure there is even room for a LDC mic to even fit in there! I have a Rode Classic top of the line mic and might give that a shot if I can squeeze it in!
2014/02/06 12:28:46
rumleymusic
The DPA's work mainly because of their size (about the size of a match stick head).   They have an attached chord which can easily slip between a closed lid, and the perfect omnidirectional pattern, even in high frequencies, means absolutely no proximity effect.  I doesn't sound like it was recorded that close or in a confined space.  The Earthworks mics succeed also for the same reason, I just think they sound a little boxy and constrained by comparison.  
 
I have the Rode NT5's and the omni heads.  Not really my first choice for piano.  They have a lot of presence and seem to work better from a distance.  They are also too sensitive for close placement to a loud source.  Mine suffer from frequent distortion in a loud studio setting.  Other than that, they are very good mics.  London's top classical engineer Tony Faulkner uses the NT55/NT6 omnis in many situations and gets great results.  
2014/02/09 07:03:38
rebel007
I've had a session with the piano angled out from the wall, on about a 45 degree angle, with an eggshell mattress covered in a feather doona, behind the mic, to stop wall reflections. Sounds absolutely fantastic. I'm getting a good clear recording with no extraneous noises, and very little spill from vocals recorded at the same time. I can't believe I didn't think of this before, it makes me realise how valuable this forum can be. Particular thanks to Jeff who suggested this technique. I have even taken part in a live radio show on the ABC where that's exactly the technique they used, and I still didn't think of it.
 
I'm currently using the Rode NT1 as this is the only decent LDC I own. I'm sure there is still a ways to go, getting the exact position, but I think this is already going to be the best position for this instrument.
 
I'll still use the M5's in the lid, as I think I can get some good character with these, I've also got some SM58's and a couple of other dynamic mics I can try as front pick ups too. If I can hire or loan some, I'll also try the DPA's, the Sennheisers, the NT55's in Omni mode (or other similar mics) to get that front sound I'm after.
 
Even though I'm a great fan of the NT1, I'll also see if I can find some other mics for the rear as well, see if I can't get an even better sound. I'm basically after something that's clean and has a fairly flat response, but I guess other mics that impart a colour may also be worth a listen.
 
Anyway I really happy with what I've achieved so far and thanks to everyone that's contributed to this post. Keep the ideas coming, I'm always listening for good techniques and hardware for pianos.
2014/02/09 07:13:09
Jeff Evans
And I have been doing some experiments because of Daniel's suggestions too. I have been trying taping a small LDC mic just under the keyboard facing into the strings and I liked what I heard there too.  (by the way Daniel and please tell me if this is a silly concept when you do tape that mic under the keyboard do you leave the lower panel off or put it back on) I tried both and still liked what I heard. I noticed the sound there is has more mid range and tops. (you can pick up a bit of pedal movement though for obvious reasons) Excellent isloation from drums though under there.
 
I have also been trying putting mics in the lid and liked what I heard there as well. It is a darker softer tone that is not so bright but more bass.
 
The mic at the rear is OK too. If there are other things going on then you have to fill that area in more with some covers and things to isolate things a little better. It is surprising how clear the top end is behind there too.
 
 
2014/02/09 07:47:42
The Maillard Reaction
The moral of the story: Listen to what you are going to record before you grab at your bag of microphones.
 
:-)
2014/02/09 20:40:44
rebel007
Yes, listen, it's the ultimate test. Though I do need to try different techniques and hardware, in order to know what to use when I need to get that sound I can hear in my head. I'm sure there are going to be different situations where I need different mics, different input hardware, and different techniques, and for that I'm going to have to spend some time trying different configurations.
I look forward to the journey though.
2014/02/11 16:18:17
rumleymusic
 
(by the way Daniel and please tell me if this is a silly concept when you do tape that mic under the keyboard do you leave the lower panel off or put it back on) I tried both and still liked what I heard. I noticed the sound there is has more mid range and tops. (you can pick up a bit of pedal movement though for obvious reasons) Excellent isloation from drums though under there.

 
I normally leave it off to get as much sound from the piano as possible.  Pedal noise is problematic, especially in solo piano recordings though.  One more reason I'd rather go out on location and fine a really nice grand.  Though once I do my studio remodel a new Yamaha C6X is definitely on my list ;)
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