Guitarhacker

ChuckC
.... we had at one point 4 of the 5 guys in the band wrote entire songs and would bring them to the band to present & possibly work on together... One of which would get upset if we changed a lyric or a melody here and there on "his song".  He was not the youngest in age and one hell of a lead player but he WAS the newest to songwriting/composition.  His songs, and lyrics were often good in concept but unpolished, and amateur sounding (understandably, he was a novice at best).  They had potential but needed work, though he would already be in love with them before he brought them to the table and took it as an attack on his baby.....    
  I explained to him how approx. half of what I write goes in the garbage the next morning.  You always think it's good while writing it but with fresh ears & perspective I could be subjective enough to toss out the trash.  ......... many would be reworked, lyrics scrapped and rewritten 2-3+ times before I brought them to the band, then of those that made it to the point of being presented to the band, about 1/3rd would get shot down out of the gate for various reasons, 1/3rd would be worked on and sit half done into eternity, and a maybe 1/3rd actually ever saw completion, stage time, & our next record.  
 .....  It is hard to write "hits" or everyone would.  
 

 
I totally hear you on that Chuck.  Just recently on a different forum, I heard a song that was extremely well written.  Great verses,  as I'm listening I'm thinking wow... what a great song.... it hits the prechorus and the energy and feel are building nicely .... it sounds like a HUGE PAYDAY CHORUS is coming up... right here....  huh?  what? ... the prechorus continues past it where the chorus should have started.... 2 more freaking lines adding nothing new and exciting...... and deflating the energy..... when the chorus finally started, it was good but the energy was gone....
 
I kindly and carefully suggested to this individual that the PC be shortened.  I explained my reasons from a writer's POV.
 
I was attacked by that writer, and just about everyone else on that forum for even suggesting such a thing.... sacrilege ..... they all, to a person said....that song was "written well and needed no changes" It was as if I wanted to sacrifice his child to the fiery furnace....
 
Nope... Writers who refuse to even listen to a different viewpoint have a long way to go. One thing I have learned about writing is that nothing is ever written in stone and recommendations to change things from other writers is not a full frontal attack on either you, or your "baby".  I've worked with a writer who feels the same way I do.... nothing is sacred in a song lyric or musically. We've scrapped each others verses, choruses, changed things around and we came out the other side with a much better and more well written song as a result. It's only on rare occasions that we do stick up for a certain line or word..... and when that happens, the other accepts it and works with it.
 
Perhaps a way to get that fellow to see the light of a songwriter's day would be to first work with him on a collaborated song so he gets a real world experience and see's that lyrics are often replaced with something so much better than the original first thought rough draft.  After seeing that, he may even come forward and ask for some "review" on his other, older stuff.  Start gentle... Instead of saying it that way, how about if we said this instead? .. sure beats, "that's a sucky line".....  I know YOU would never say that to someone.... but trust me... I have heard those kinds of comments about my stuff from other musicians.
 
 
 
 

Herb this is a great post! It's a shame you got bashed, but that's one of the risks we take when we try to talk about another man's baby. It's kinda the reason I don't post many critiques to the song forum anymore. I always had the feeling my views (though appreciated by some) were not appreciated by others. So I'm just way more selective these days as I NEVER want to hurt anyone, honest.
 
That said, your post sort of reminds me of when Philip and I work together. As most know, Philip is never crazy about over-commercialized music or anything cliche. I'm the commercial guy that always pushes hooks either out of him, or brings them into the song when they may not be as apparent. I think what I bring to the table helps to make our partnership unique as well as it keeping us happy with what we put out.
 
The other side of the coin....is what Philip does to reel ME back in as well. His quirkiness and unique style of writing is amazing in my opinion. He comes up with some really great songs as well as parts of songs. Without me, he's still be in great shape...but I think the commercial value I add helps to bring the music to a different light. Without HIM in the mix, we may be left with a super commercial tune that might not be as interesting. So we off-set one another yet still compliment at the same time.
 
I think writing is at its best when you have different elements within the song, but like you, if the chorus doesn't hit me like a chorus (which is why I mentioned Dream Theater before in my other post. They went from massive chorus lines to "huh? that's it?" chorus lines) with that climax, it's a letdown and is definitely deflating as you mentioned.
 
I think the main thing to consider in all of this is...."who are you and what are you?" Meaning, if you are a hobbyist that just wants to write, you do what you want. If you want to make money today at this, you do what is required/requested. If you want to enjoy music and write within a band or you are searching for your identity or a band identity, you do what you do and see where you end up, ya know?
 
I just looked at the question here and said to myself...."ok, let's step out of the musician line of thinking. Do you tell someone that is asking for advice on a pop or hip-hop song to write as crazy and weird as you want to? Or do you tell them the obvious thing which is "write for the genre, be true to yourself but also consider who you are writing for?" I would feel I was doing anyone asking that question a dis-service if I answered any other way. If the hook isn't there in today's times here in 2014, you lose. Go big or go home....IF you are really serious about the possibility of making money. If not, be like the 2 million other artists that are probably the most incredible in the world that never make a dime or get an ounce of notoriety. We all fall into that category...or we'd certainly not be here....so, regardless of what I say, I'm going against my own advice. :)
 
-Danny

Danny... good points....
 
You nailed it when you asked,  are you writing as a hobby or to try and place something. HUGE difference in every aspect of the answer to that question.
 
Most songwriters are probably in the "for themselves" category and there's nothing wrong with that. That still doesn't mean you can't take advice and learn the craft of songwriting a bit better.  Every amateur golfer or surfer or skier wants to improve even though they have no aspirations of joining the Olympic team.... so what is different about this hobby of songwriting and it's close cousin the hobby of home recording? We should all strive to be our best and keep learning.
 
Knowing how sensitive most songwriters are about their songs, I do try to be gentle in my honesty. No matter how carefully you offer constructive crits, there are those who take it as an attack on them personally and there's nothing I can do about that. 
 
When I post a song, certainly I like to hear "good job" ... "loved it"... "man this should be on the radio"...etc...however, I generally learn nothing useful from those sorts of posts except that the poster likes the song. It's the poster who says..... maybe you should have a look at and record the vocal track again (recent example) or there is sibilance in the chorus, or the bass line doesn't fit, or the drums aren't quite cutting it (sound familiar?) or, the overall mix or a specific track has an EQ issue and you should pull the 500 hz down about 3db or, what's that  pop at 2:34 in the tune? Those kinds of comments are the ones that are teachable moments.
 
After having been associated with some songwriter groups and having "professional hit writers" critique my work, you either learn to take the crits or you get out. As a member of the Nashville Songwriters Assn and submitting tunes for crits to them... trust me when I say I've had my songwriting butt, proverbially handed back to me on a silver platter. When submitting to them they have a check box list.... be gentle, I'm a noob..... give me some advice but be kind.... tell me what's wrong with the song..... no holds barred, be honest, I can take it.  I generally asked for the last one.... no sense in being scared..... if you wanna run with the big boys you better be able to take some full body slams or else go set on the porch. 
 
I still write just to write..... not trying to write a hit song but if that happens, well I'm cool with that. Got some stuff signed into some libraries, and making new contacts all the time.... just signing with a new one now for film and TV .... currently have a few dozen cues on a big time TV producers desk for a huge TV show... keeping the fingers crossed on that one (if they use my stuff I'll let you know )..... but yeah, I write and play because I love it, and if anything else happens, that's icing on the cake. Always learning as much as I can because if you're not moving forward, you're moving backwards, there is no standing still.

Guitarhacker
Possibly.... I use this theory.... I write what I feel.   If it's in my head and of soul and is seeking a way out through a song I will write it whether I think it has hit potential or not. I simply write each song to the best of my ability.
 
I think every great songwriter write in this manner to one degree or another.
 
It is through the process of writing many, many songs that the truly great ones have a chance to shine.
 
Jeffery Steele, super hit writer in the country music market said in a seminar I was able to attend that he simply writes at least one song a day as a primary goal. 99 out of 100 are throw aways, destined to never see the light of day..... but that other 1% .... yeah, those are the ones everyone is singing the words to at the concerts. He said he doesn't try to write a hit... he simply writes.
 
Of all the stuff I write, there is only a handful which I would even consider letting a publisher hear.
 
I've heard it said another way... Play the game, and the score will take care of itself.
 
Just write.... every month, every week, every day if you can.... just write.

Well said, Guitarhacker.

Guitarhacker
It is through the process of writing many, many songs that the truly great ones have a chance to shine.
 
Jeffery Steele, super hit writer in the country music market said in a seminar I was able to attend that he simply writes at least one song a day as a primary goal. 99 out of 100 are throw aways, destined to never see the light of day..... but that other 1% .... yeah, those are the ones everyone is singing the words to at the concerts. He said he doesn't try to write a hit... he simply writes.
 
I've heard it said another way... Play the game, and the score will take care of itself.
 
Just write.... every month, every week, every day if you can.... just write.

I'm not sure how I missed your post before I wrote mine...   I guess I was too busy picking a fight with Danny...
 
That is a very well written post, and is exactly my view on songwriting... I couldn't say it any better than you did...

I write to write.  Being creative without restrictions or limitations is a wonderful outlet for me.  Many times I will work on a hook or what I think could make a commercial hit but in the end, I let the creativity flow.  I appreciate originality and good songwriting attributes (good lyrics, melody, and relevance) over polished meaningless songs written just for commercial sake.  
 
 

Addition to my previous post #9 
 
Following a particular trend is fairly easy enough for an experience DAW addict and skilled musician/writer, but to "set the trend;" to create totally awesome music is not easy. And without the backing of a good label deal someone else (unintentionally or intentionally) is bound to come along soon enough with the same or very similar. 
 
Millions of tracks are uploaded every year, aww heck probably every month and a lot of it is average or less (quantity syndrome; over-saturation) but that's not saying the actual performances are all crap; I still come across the unknown's and their guitar playing is totally freaking awesome but their style is very dated i.e. 1970-1980, which is pretty much of what I've done though keyboard based; orientated. 
 
Meanwhile, many very talented people worldwide with similar ideas and goals are all frequently writing, honing their skills and tweaking like crazy as we speak. It's good to experiment, think outside the box but don't try to analyze too much; relax, close your eyes, like I've said before; 'feel it' because ya' never know; "Mistakes could actually turn out to be a freaking stroke of genius." 
 
And crazy as it seems, often the choice of 'best song' from ones own collection is actually another song they least expect :P 
 
For bands: I think styles such as Blues is the easiest of them all, 12 or 16 bar pick a key, count in, let's go lol.... great for warming up; jamming out before tackling the more complicated and popular styles such as; Pop, Rock, Metal. I think of trends as a guides, and there is no 'one' trend at any given time because there are always various styles happening. 
 
Don't know if I've got errors in my above post or explained it well enough; I'm multitasking; I'm cooking, got to go, don't want to burn the roast... Arghhhh! 
 

Well said Greg!