2014/01/05 14:30:45
davdud101
So I have two questions. I know that every connection in the signal chain add a little bit of noise to the signal... But I've heard that longer cables tend to [do something malevolent that don't remember and am not quite sure of]. So with that in mind, is it better to use longer cables (in the case that they're needed, for space and stuff) with fewer splits in the chain, or... what? 
 
Second question: Why are my preamps so noisy? I mean, I know my SingStar USB-Audio Converter is a toy, so I'm sure that plays into it, but I've been reading up and I don't really understand; what difference does a preamp make? Why are some preferred over others (mostly in high-end pres)?
 
I know that last question is pretty stupid, but I've never worked with preamps or even real audio interfaces, so I'm still learning and waiting for cash to upgrade and SEE the difference.
Thanks!
2014/01/05 14:58:21
spacealf
If the cables are balanced then I fail to see any noise increase over shorter lengths, maybe live where cable runs are much longer in aspects. In pre-amps you usually get what you pay for, and in the electronics hooking it up all together. In the end the EIN is the lowest noise you can have over a bandwidth of frequencies, so it is all relative on how you end up learning your equipment and finding how it works and the best you can set it to. The more you pay for equipment, the usually better it will be - simple fact is "Let the Consumer Beware".  But there is a point where the more you pay you are paying for preceived differences no one may actually hear. A relatively good cable is about the best you can get unless you go and pay quite a big hike in price more, which most people would shrug off as marketing hype. If the equipment is made good at any price point and if you use the equipment the best it can be used, then the only difference between better equipment and cheaper equipment, will be what you perceive you hear and  the difference that actually is. The only way usually to tell is to hear it and the reasons why the better equipment is better - more variance in input and output so home equipment to me is still only home consumer equipment whether it states it is pro or not, but if you are going to build a studio and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars then yes, that is going to make a difference then a few thousands spent for home consumer so-called pro equipment.
 
People still pick out what they can afford and what they hear with the equipment and the rest I guess is left to those who have a track record or so-called golden ear to hear some of the difference. Without the equipment in the signal chain to keep it all great equipment or just the norm equipment then price jump for the equipment may just keep you getting what you can for your budget.
 
And spending money on equipment usually was not done first by being in music, but working at something else like being a business leader or engineer or one of the pro professions. But even then good enough equipment can be bought by a good working person also nowadays if you have time left to spend on it.
 
Well, in all fairness I am not sure what you meant by your questions and to me home consumer equipment although it can be good will never equal a adequate set-up professional studio. The professional studio has more equipment in the end it can pull out to make a recording with and quite expensive equipment and although the home consumer equipment can reach there in a sense, it usually has been the same for many a many years ever since sound recording came about being.
 
Well, like usually usual, I plan to make no sense in trying to explain it, experience and reading will give yourself a better answer then ever I can give you.
It is not the age, it is the mileage!
 
You can not be a jack of trades with everyone with even the Beatles or the Rolling Stones, they may listen and still it will be the same as anything else - some will like it, some will not, and some and probably a lot will not even care.
 

 
Yet there will be serious people and funny people playing music and those who you may never consider that do a night club act in various places like Las Vegas or Branson MI, or any of the other places or around the world.
 
I am not sure what I am talking about anymore, so I take my leave.
 
 
2014/01/05 15:27:43
spacealf
For sure the vocals she recorded will use a better microphone than I ever will buy and I am sure no one who did this was concerned about cable length when recording on their equipment, although usually she is the only one who did the singing and backup parts also.
 
https://soundcloud.com/imogen-heap
But that was a while back now (years ago) so I don't think she is even thinking about it anymore.
 
I did  it much later for the yucks of it I guess.
And that will be that.
It still is in my signature for some dumb reason, because I have other work to do and I guess I just am not doing that much right now.
 
 Her vocal tracks and beat track are still there on the bottom if you wish to download and have at it.
 
2014/01/05 16:46:15
AT
Get the appropriate legnth balanced cables you required.  I don't know if your soundcard mic in is balanced, probably not.  But every connection is a chance for something to go wrong (cables seldom break in the studio before connections).  You are discovering why people pay good money for good stuff, though.
 
Your best bet is for online cables, guitar center and such put a premium on "last minute" items, when you need something for a show or finish recording.  So get 2 - one as a backup.
 
Good preamps cost money too.  Many (not all) professional preamps use transformers at $100 a pop.  So it adds up.  There are professional transfomerless preamps, and most interface preamps don't have preamps.  But they are good, fully spec'ed preamps.  I doubt the soundcard preamp is up to any musical standard.  Even if you get a good signal out of it, it will be fuzzy, indistinct.  A better preamp is easier to set.  Has more gain.  And simply sounds better, more like what was in the room.  Even those on a garden variety music interface.  Unless you know what you are listening for, the better preamps don't sound that much better, even w/ the "sound" of transfomers.  That is the last 5 or 10% people talk about.  But plenty of good acoustics have been captured with interface preamps.
 
@
2014/01/05 18:32:26
The Maillard Reaction
With regards to cables and length:
 
Transmission over high impedance connections degrade very quickly with length. Not only do they lower in level and SNR as the resistance increases with length but they also alter in frequency response as the capacitance in the cable increases with length. High impedance connections are common with home stereo gear, consumer grade keyboard outputs, and guitar gear. This gear works best with short cable runs. A great lesson is to compare a very long guitar cable and a very short guitar cable with a high impedance guitar amp input. You will see that the guitar cable forms part of the tone circuit.
 
 
Transmission over low impedance connections degrade much less and can maintain quality over very long lengths. Furthermore most low impedance music equipment uses balanced wiring so that any noise that accumulates on the long cable runs is negated by the balancing cancellation. The important point I'd like to make for you is that when some one says "balanced" cables, the pertinence with regards to your question about length is that the balanced cables are also part of a "low impedance" rather than high impedance connection.
 
 
__________________
With regards to "splits in the chain":
 
All electro-mechanical connection points increase resistance and that degrades the signal a tiny little bit so less connectors or adapters etc. is better than more connectors.
 
__________________
With regards to preamp noise:
 
That's a subject that you can spend years and years learning about. To simplify, there are numerous places for noise to enter the system in a preamp circuit and many of the solutions are well known but involve expense that many people do not appreciate so as an end user you are presented with gear that fits all budgets and grades. Many of the techniques used to minimize noise also provide subtle characteristics to the audio content and so even after the noise issue is minimized there are characteristics to the sound quality that are directly related to the issue of noise avoidance or suppression. Designers have choices about the use of transformer or transformerless audio coupling, linear or non linear power supplies, discreet or monolithic topology, etc. etc. etc. etc.
 
Great questions... keep thinking about this stuff and the ideas will slowly start coinciding with what you hear when you work with the gear.
 
best regards,
mike
 
 
edit spelling 
2014/01/05 20:06:31
spacealf
Yes, I was mainly typing about low impedence connections. High impedence (guitars and cords) are another subject.
Then you get into Sound System Engineering - like football stadiums and such and line voltages and other factors to consider or with extra-large concerts and places like Carnegie Hall and other sound system venues.
All different and engineered with respect to that.
 
2014/01/05 23:28:59
rumleymusic
No worry on balanced cables.  At 1000ft the capacitance of a standard mic cable will decrease the amplitude .2db at 20kHz.  Rather insignificant.  I run hundreds of feet of cable regularly with no discernible noise or degradation to the signal.  

Why are preamps noisy? Because they amplify the signal thousands of times, and the noise floor of the electronics will be amplified as well.  (at 80dB of gain the signal multiplication factor is over 10,000!)  If you are using a cheap USB preamp it will not have enough power to achieve a low noise floor.  In terms of audio, more power, and more wasteful consumption of power equals better performance, faster attacks, and lower noise.  Good preamps will cost $500-$1000 per channel and will be "gas" guzzlers. Worth it if you need to amplify something above 50dB.
2014/01/06 00:10:34
The Band19
I have short balanced cables and nice pre-amps :-)
 
A UA LA-610 and an Avalon 737 VT (Love them both like my children)
2014/01/06 11:08:36
Starise
Second question first- Why are preamps so noisy?
 
If you could get something like a Focusrite Scarlett  2i2 for around 100 bucks you would be ahead. Heck, maybe get used for a lot less.   There is a chance you got a dud. For anyone half serious about recording the Sing Star probably won't cut it entirely, even if it works ok right now. Some other things that tend to cause head aches in the small studio are poorly or incorrectly grounded electrical outlets and cheap microphones .If the ground lug isn't to the panel you can pick up 60 cycle hum or if you live in the UK it is 50 cycles. This seems to be even more noticed on less quality equipment because it isn't well shielded.
 
Gain staging is a big thing too. If I plug  a passive bass into a mediocre pre amp I'll need to turn it up pretty high to hear the bass which will introduce hiss at the higher ranges of the pre- amp.There is a threshold where you can see the hiss on an oscilliscope. The sweet spot on the pre- amp can usually be heard. If you hear  hiss, turn it down slightly until the hiss is almost gone. Pre-amps like the ones in the Scarlett are pretty good. You can drive them up there to a decent level. On a cheaper pre amp you won't hear that bass guitar until the hiss is really loud. Gain staging can help. If you run the bass into a bass amp and then take the output from the back into your interface, you won't need to drive your pre amp as hard because you have "staged" the inputs. You can further work with that staging inside of Sonar with the software gain controls and the software controls that come with some interfaces . This is the way to do things "on the cheap" . The guys with the expensive well built gear don't have many problems with this because they are using top notch well designed pre amps that can be driven until you go deaf before you hear any hiss. But you don't need to spend that kind of money as there are lots of decent audio interfaces out there for not a lot of money.
 
Question 1- Is cable length important? Yes and no. If you are in a bedroom studio, then the lengths you are dealing with are not likely to be a concern, Anything 20' and under isn't a concern as long as you keep the cables away from sources of electrical noise. Balanced Mike cables can go for long distances. Since most home studio cables are not longer than 20' and they are balanced ( XLR connections) AND they are usually shielded there isn't usually any issue with noise related to the cables.Providing your microphones and cables are ok as in grounded. The high impedance cables CAN pick up noise and length is important. The shorter the better and the further away from electrical interference the better.These are the cables coming from keyboards and guitar effects, usually using a 1/4" phono connector. These are shielded too but they are more susceptible to noise and interference.These kinds of connectors on microphones mean you have a really cheap mic. I would throw that sucker right out the window. Anything called an "electeret" microphone is a waste of good plastic.
2014/01/06 12:03:28
batsbrew
quality preamps and quality cables makes good sense for investment if you are serious about recording.
everytime you improve either, or both, you make better sonic choices.
 
don't use cables any longer than you need.
i have mine custom made to order.
they are cheaper than off the wall cables.
 
 
 
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