• Techniques
  • The Audio Expert: Everything You Need to Know About Audio - Ethan Winer (p.3)
2013/12/29 13:23:05
The Maillard Reaction
Hi Bats,
 I'm not sure why some people get so preoccupied with the fact that Ethan Winer has a business.
 
 One of the curious things about his business is that he stresses that you can make perfectly good copies of his products all by yourself using materials you get anywhere. The people that buy products from Ethan do so because they want to.
 The people that start accusing him of having some sort of agenda based of selling his Real Traps products don't seem to mind buying all kinds of stupid stuff, that often times doesn't do what it says it does, from many other vendors, yet they harbor an intense dislike for Mr Winer. It seems like an ugly past  time.
 
  The comparison of his mixes to some other mix seems misplaced, his book and the numerous articles he has written have never focused on offering advice or instruction about mixing. He writes about technology.
 
 It just happens to be that he has lived a life of audio enthusiasm. You may read his bio here. I enjoy seeing his photos of the console he built in 1972:
 
 
 
and the photo of his second home made synthesizer circa 1974:
 
 
 
 
 
 
Hi Bill,
 I'm not sure where we veered off course. I light heartedly mentioned that Mr. Winer's audio experience predates the internet by about 20 years... I think it's closer to 30. Other than that I don't really have anything to disagree about and for what it's worth I'd expect that any particular disagreements you may voice about the book mentioned in the OP are ideas I would agree with.
 I tried to point out that I think reading books, even books I have no particular interest in is helpful even if it takes a few years for the info to sink in. After reading your post it seems like I veered with you when you veered. :-)
I feel that the books you have recommended are very good selections to consider.
 
 
 Happy new year!
 
 all the best,
mike
2013/12/29 14:27:29
batsbrew
i'm more interested in the craft of 'listening' and understanding how to get a sound captured and mixed properly, than the technology behind it..
 
in other words, learning how to make good mix decisions, and knowing your playback system well, is the most important thing.
 
ethan seems to want people to believe that other things, are the most important things.
 
 
when i hear good craft, i know it.
 
 
2013/12/29 15:18:32
dmbaer
wst3
There are web sites that provide raw tracks from known recordings, I'm not sure all of them are completely legal, but it is worth some surfing to find some of these. There are also companies that provide tracks to songs specifically to practice mixing - I've not used any of them, so I can't make recommendations, perhaps others can?



Mike Senior's web site is a gold mine of this sort of thing.  In addition to a lot of information not included in his book, he has an extensive collection of raw tracks for mixing practice, available at no cost:
 
http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm
 
I had a chance to speak to Mike about a year ago - seems to be a extremely nice person.  He said he was a little puzzled and disappointed that more people didn't seem to be making use of what he was providing.  Maybe it's because few people know it's actually there.
2013/12/29 15:24:43
The Maillard Reaction
Wow David,
 
 That seems like an amazing resource for self study people, educators, pupils etc.
 
 Thanks for sharing the link.
 
best regards,
mike
 
2013/12/29 15:31:30
Jeff Evans
There is a great resource now of quailty multitrack material here:
 
http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm
 
Mike Senior's multitrack website. You can audition the tracks before downloading the multitrack sessions so you can pick what you may be interested in. The performances are very good so you are dealing with quality performances. They are all just raw wave files all the same length suitable to load up into any DAW.  There are many genres too.
 
I have turned out to be an excellent mix engineer these days. I did not use any books. I am not sure books on mixing will necessarily help although when I started there weren't any so that made it a little harder. I learned by extensive listening to music of all genres on expensive hi fi equipment. Then copied and practiced until I got the same results. That approach worked for me. Listen, translate, engineer yourself.
 
Two books that I found to be very good too are 'Behind the Glass' Vols I and II. They are basically interviews with a whole lot of great engineers but they disclose a lot of very useful info. Stuff you can put into practice.
 
You can read a great book and pick up all sorts of things but in the end mixing is about using your ears and making the right choices with your technology so nothing quite replaces that work of just a lot of mixing using your ears.
 
I agree with Mike re the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook too. That is an older book these days but still very good. We still use it as a teaching resource in our sound engineering classes. Talking about sound engineering teachers I am probably one of the few here and I have that job all the time of teaching students to mix. The way I do it is:
 
1 Supervise the tracking and give them good advice about capturing things well at the start to make mixing easier.
 
2 I do a session first in the control room with everything up on a projector so they can see what I am doing. I do the mix first in front of them and explain what and how I am going about things.
 
3 We move to the lab where they all download the same session and they set that up on their individual computers. I still mix as well giving them instructions. Using the projector in the lab they can still see and hear what I do. I do something and then they do the same sort of thing.
 
4 After a while I let them loose on it themselves for a period. They are using headphones at this point.
 
5 They move into other areas and continue the mix on speakers for fine tuning etc..
 
Here is some really good advice and very few talk about this. The better quality the artist or band the much easier it is to mix. The main reason why people have difficulty with their mixes is because the music itself is simple ordinary. FACT! Sorry to say it but it is true. People should learn the art of detecting poor or average ideas and performances much earlier on and go back and create the music again until it is much better. I learned this early and these days I only record and mix stellar artists and performances. I turn down the rest. It is a waste of time trying to make something ordinary sound good.
 
When you hear a fantastic mix you are not hearing the mix at all. You are hearing the artist, song, band, performance. That is what is blowing you away, not the mix! In fact a great mix should almost disappear and let all that shine through.
2013/12/29 18:08:10
Danny Danzi
dmbaer
wst3
There are web sites that provide raw tracks from known recordings, I'm not sure all of them are completely legal, but it is worth some surfing to find some of these. There are also companies that provide tracks to songs specifically to practice mixing - I've not used any of them, so I can't make recommendations, perhaps others can?



Mike Senior's web site is a gold mine of this sort of thing.  In addition to a lot of information not included in his book, he has an extensive collection of raw tracks for mixing practice, available at no cost:
 
http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm
 
I had a chance to speak to Mike about a year ago - seems to be a extremely nice person.  He said he was a little puzzled and disappointed that more people didn't seem to be making use of what he was providing.  Maybe it's because few people know it's actually there.




I too think that's a great site David. However, one of the downfalls (in my opinion) of the multi-tracks are they are really too good. They stand up on their own with little needing to be done in all honesty. So to me, more than using them to mix, I've sent some of my interns there to use the tracks as sound identification because of how well some of them are recorded.
 
Most bedroom guys are not going to get that type of quality, so it's almost a moot point to mix stuff like that. BUT, they do allow an engineer to take a listen to their own instruments in comparison to see how they are doing. I think Mike would do better with tracks recorded by beginners that presented a challenge over using these incredible tracks he has presented as in my opinion, there isn't much of a challenge factor for mixing as much as it is for "sound tracking". All the other incredible resources he offers are mint....I just felt the multi's were recorded a little too good.
 
-Danny
2013/12/29 18:21:44
Jeff Evans
Yes but what they do teach you is what great musical performances sound like and what you should be aspiring to yourself musically and also inspiring you towards tracking as well as those multitracks have been.
 
With care you can get killer tracks in your bedroom. I have never been limited by the environment I record in or the tools I am using to record either. It is more about what you do to capture things that count.
 
And how well the players actually play and how great the song or music is.
2013/12/29 23:38:38
wst3
Danny Danzi
I too think that's a great site David. However, one of the downfalls (in my opinion) of the multi-tracks are they are really too good.



Wow, I mean no disrespect, but isn't that kind of the point of tracking? You want the best possible tracks so that mixing is easy - or easier I guess.

A good instrument, in great shape, and in tune (do I really need to say that?), an appropriate microphone placed appropriately for the instrument and the room... that's the key. Yeah, some basements and bedrooms don't sound as good as some purpose built spaces. So if you really need a great room tone you go somewhere you can get it - I've recorded a number of tracks over the years in church sanctuaries, music school auditoriums and concert halls, etc. OR, you learn how to minimize the problems in your bedroom/basement through microphone selection and placement.

Sorry, but I think the tracks at Mike's web site are perfect for learning to mix...
 
Learning to track is an entirely different matter<G>!
2013/12/30 08:35:43
Danny Danzi
wst3
Danny Danzi
I too think that's a great site David. However, one of the downfalls (in my opinion) of the multi-tracks are they are really too good.



Wow, I mean no disrespect, but isn't that kind of the point of tracking? You want the best possible tracks so that mixing is easy - or easier I guess.

A good instrument, in great shape, and in tune (do I really need to say that?), an appropriate microphone placed appropriately for the instrument and the room... that's the key. Yeah, some basements and bedrooms don't sound as good as some purpose built spaces. So if you really need a great room tone you go somewhere you can get it - I've recorded a number of tracks over the years in church sanctuaries, music school auditoriums and concert halls, etc. OR, you learn how to minimize the problems in your bedroom/basement through microphone selection and placement.

Sorry, but I think the tracks at Mike's web site are perfect for learning to mix...
 
Learning to track is an entirely different matter<G>!




Yes and yes to both you and Jeff, but you're both speaking from an experienced engineer frame of mind. Having tracks that are great do nothing for a bedroom engineer that is trying to learn. What good is it mixing a mix that needs little to no work in THEIR realm? I think you guys may be missing my point.
 
Keep yourselves out of the equation and go back to where you may have been in your experimental phase. Having great tracks like the ones offered on that site do nothing for the guy that is struggling with limited resources. It teaches him nothing other than "this is how you should track kid....when you can learn more and afford to that is."
 
Have you seriously listened to some of the stuff that gets posted by people who are crying for feedback? Go check out the song forum and you'll hear what I mean. Some are great, some are good, some are in need of work and simply do not know how to get the results that are needed to be "acceptable".
 
You're not dealing with bass guitars on Mike's site to where the engineer had no clue how a bass should sound. You're not dealing with guys that don't know how to get drum sounds or guitar sounds. This is the same as buying someone's book that brags about how great their tracks are because they used an SSL and all this hardware that YOU, as an amateur, MAY never own. It helps no one until we can teach sound identification and most of the time, that needs to be taught using the gear and resources you have.
 
You, me or anyone else throwing up tracks that were done to perfection helps no one other than to show off or dangle the carrot in front of their faces. Showing off good sounds is not the same as helping someone learn how to achieve them...and THIS is what I was getting at.
 
-Danny
2013/12/30 09:35:03
bitflipper
I have more fun with it when the tracks are (moderately) crappy. It's very satisfying to make something sound good that started out bad.
 
To return to topic: yes, I have read Ethan's book and found it fairly enjoyable. I'm a fan of Mr. Winer. A vendor who'll gladly teach you how to make for yourself the very products he sells. A sometimes lonely voice of reason in a field rife with unscientific beliefs and unfounded opinions.
 
But the book itself is just a compilation of Ethan's favorite audio-related topics, and not a great tutorial. Something to round out your library, along with The Adventures of Mixerman, Behind the Glass and This is Your Brain on Music.
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