• Techniques
  • How To question - keyboard sound - arpeggiated and/or LFO movement - how is it done? (p.2)
2013/06/19 22:41:32
lawajava
b rock - sounds like you are able to make suggestions to give me some clues for my opening question.

You also had a note in my related post on how to get an LFO to actually be hearable in Dimension Pro. I've now figured out how to get an LFO to contribute to the sound in Dim Pro so thanks for the help on that. 
 
I'm wondering if folks think in the motion sound of this particular song that it could be attempted by using the arpeggiator in Sonar, or by using something like the step features in Rapture.  I'm still seeking an approach to how to get anywhere near that kind of movement.
2013/06/20 06:56:21
The Maillard Reaction
 
I think most of the "movement" I hear is based on the interaction within the arrangement rather than an effect on the keyboard.
 
I'll defer to Brock regarding how one might do it with the tools he suggests.
 
I'd take an "electric piano" sample, maybe pull back the attack with the ADSR, maybe add some modulation using some sort of tool. (I might just flange the whole thing real slowly). I make a point of making sure the velocity of each note created the sense of undulation that we here... just like a pianist would.
 
Like I say, I think the real sense of movement is from the way the other instruments layer up over that basic 16th note ride.
 
I'd enjoy seeing a patch of what Brock has in mind... it would be fun to learn about it.
 
best regards,
mike
 
2013/06/20 20:12:25
b rock
I just spent more time with Katy Perry than ... well, The Band19 (above).  Not unpleasant, but not something that I do very often.  Nice production values.  With all of the discussion here, I thought that I'd try some 'speed programming' with a time limit of 5 minutes (typing time excluded).  I played the song linked a few times in the background. Here's the process as it happened:
 
 
I loaded 07 - Triangle in Rapture's Multisamples.  Nicely muted; just a touch of overtones.  It may be a piano-type envelope, but I think something like 045 - Piano is a little too bright.  Against my better judgement, I used a LP4 filter (01. DSP routing enabled - Cutoff knob about 12 o'clock).  I'd have guessed a LP1 or LP2 filter slope.
 
For ease of initial programming, this is at 160 BPM.  Otherwise, it would get complicated to describe at 80 BPM (step sequence to 32 steps, illogical-sounding sync rates, etc.).  Needless to say, sync parameters get adjusted when it's not at double-time.  I could've just uploaded the finished preset(s), but this is a how-to about synth programming technique.
 
AMP EG
Status: On
Sync: 1/2
The rest at defaults.
 
Right-click once in the top-left corner of the AMP EG graph, and again in the bottom-right corner.  That's it.  Two (additional) nodes; curve like a ski jump.  No sustain or release phase; just a blip.
 
AMP StepGen
Status:On
The rest at defaults.
 
Drag the first sequencer step to maximum value (top).  Hold your Shift key.  Left-click in the first step, and drag downloads toward (but not to) minimum value (near the bottom of step 16).  Watch the whole sequence ramp to your current mouse position.  You should end up with a nice 16 step staircase downward.
 
Hold your Alt key, and left-click in Steps 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,and 15 (odd steps - every other step).  These are the retriggers for your Amp EG envelope.  Here's where it gets choppy, and fades out sync'ed to tempo.
 
Note that there are two ways to go about the sequencing.  Sync will ... well, sync to a MIDI Clock.  The numbers represent 'beats' or fractions thereof (of a quarter note).  Freq(uency) can be set up to an equivalent rate, with one important difference.  It resets the sequence when you send it some MIDI Notes.  The first holds and loops with current tempo.  The second allows you to trigger the sequence with your own sense of timing.
 
 
It's a very muted sound at this point, so you may want to jack up the Element and Master Volume knobs (or raise both AMP KEYTRACK nodes to maximum).
 
CUT 1 LFO
Status: On
Sync: 4
Depth: 1200 cents
The rest at defaults.
 
I left-clicked on the LFO display to go from a 0 - Triangle to 1 - Sine shape.  A little bit of modulation; going 600 cents above and below the centered Cutoff knob at 500.8 Hz. (or thereabouts).  For bonus points:
 
MODULATION MATRIX
Source: CC 1 (Mod Wheel)
Destination: F1 Cutoff 1
Depth: 2400 cents
Smooth: 0.0 (to taste)
 
This will add two octaves of range to the Cutoff Knob frequency.  It allows you to fade in a brighter sound as the song intensifies.  That's basically it.  Not a perfect emulation, but a good starting point to tweak further.  I still have less than two minutes in my time allotment.  You'll also want the filter / amplitude 'sweep' that emphasizes the start at each measure.
 
I got that by copying Element 1, pasting it to Element 2, and setting the AMP StepGen Status to Off.  Then I copied the AMP EG to Cut 1 in Element 2, and tweaked around with the settings.  One interesting tactic was to load a Chamber Insert FX, bring the Input down to 1.0 - 10.0% or so, and the Dry/Wet mix to 100% wet.  It gave a subtle background wash of reverb for every chord change.  This will kill the Element 2 attack (at 100% wet), but the 'verb blooms nicely and fills out between the sequence steps.
 
Time's up.
 
This isn't the only way to pull off this kind of sound.  You have the delay, arpeggiator, LFO, and external sequencer options already mentioned, and more that weren't discussed.  It's just another way to go about things.  Try out a few combinations of techniques, persist, make mistakes, and you can end up with exactly what you hear in your mind's ear.
2013/06/20 22:19:34
lawajava
b rock -all I can say is wow! Thanks!

I haven't tried this yet, and I'm not entirely sure I can follow your well described recipe for this approach, but I'm going to try!

I presume I'll have questions as I walk through trying to follow what you've noted, but this is very helpful indeed.

Really appreciate that you put this thought into the details.

It's a cool sound they pulled off so I hope you enjoyed the experiment for yourself as well.
2013/06/20 22:44:14
b rock
I enjoy a challenge.  It was written 'stream-of-consciousness' to give an idea of the process from empty program to basic core preset.  The danger in that approach is that it can be confusing; especially if someone is unfamiliar with certain terminology.  One thing that I can tell you from my own preset programming is that a particular sound is never quite 'finished'.  It's just 'good enough' for the current application.
 
So, ask away.  It'll give me an excuse to watch Katy Perry in action again.
2013/06/21 06:58:27
The Maillard Reaction
Thanks b rock.
2013/06/22 16:20:50
lawajava
b rock - I've gone through and tried the settings a couple times now.  Definitely took me a long way toward trying to get that vibe. This is kind of a long post, and the funny thing is that I actually have a pretty good result based on your directions without the clarifications on the blind spots I'm asking about below.  But just to help me understand further, I'm asking for a few clarifications.
 
Thanks much!
 
Here are a couple of questions where I couldn't follow your notes/steps (and pardon my ignorance):
 
- You picked LP4.  So I set it there and it seems to be a good choice.  You commented: "I'd have guessed a LP1 or LP2 filter slope". What are you ruminating about there? 
 
- The BPM stuff you mentioned regarding Rapture I'm confused about.  Where is it in Rapture?  You noted:
"For ease of initial programming, this is at 160 BPM.  Otherwise, it would get complicated to describe at 80 BPM (step sequence to 32 steps, illogical-sounding sync rates, etc.).  Needless to say, sync parameters get adjusted when it's not at double-time.  I could've just uploaded the finished preset(s), but this is a how-to about synth programming technique."
 
I didn't follow any of that.  I do see that I have 16 steps in the grid.  I also have it synched to my host (which is Sonar X2).  When I change the tempo in Sonar X2 everything follows along fine.  But I'm wondering about where to set a tempo in Rapture, and if there are BPM settings.
 
- In the EG Amp grid you noted: "Right-click once in the top-left corner of the AMP EG graph, and again in the bottom-right corner.  That's it.  Two (additional) nodes; curve like a ski jump.  No sustain or release phase; just a blip."
 
I wasn't sure what you did there.  I tried it two ways.  In one version I have a straight-ish line going from the top left to the bottom right.  After doing all the other stuff mentioned in your procedure it sounds quite nice.   I did an alternative version where I added two nodes and made kind of down slope, then an upslope then another downslope sort of like a ski jump.  It was kind of random where I put the extra curves in.  It sounds okay as well, but not sure what you were trying to suggest to do there.
 
- In your notes about the Steps and synching, you said: "Note that there are two ways to go about the sequencing.  Sync will ... well, sync to a MIDI Clock.  The numbers represent 'beats' or fractions thereof (of a quarter note).  Freq(uency) can be set up to an equivalent rate, with one important difference.  It resets the sequence when you send it some MIDI Notes.  The first holds and loops with current tempo.  The second allows you to trigger the sequence with your own sense of timing."
 
I wasn't quite sure if you were speaking of any settings in that.  I have sync under the Amp EG set to 1/2.  Was that the setting?  How would I choose between Frequency and the sync?
 
Last question from your notes...
 
Under the Cut 1 LFO notes you said: "I left-clicked on the LFO display to go from a 0 - Triangle to 1 - Sine shape.  A little bit of modulation; going 600 cents above and below the centered Cutoff knob at 500.8 Hz. (or thereabouts)."
 
I got the sine shape.  (Clicking on the black bar above the LFO shapes provides a drop-down menu which is a lot easier to navigate).  I wasn't sure what you were referring to in 600 cents and below the centered cutoff knob at  500.8 Hz.  What area of settings are you referring to there?
 
Thanks again!
 
 
 
 
 
2013/06/23 10:37:04
b rock
1).  With a patch from scratch, two important design decisions are the starting waveform and filter choices.  In theory, the Cutoff frequency is where the filter chops off the waveform.  The reality is that it slopes off at a given rate.  A Low Pass 4-pole (24dB/octave) slope is one very common filter type (Moog).  So is a LP-2 filter (12 dB/Octave - Oberheim).  I initially thought that the muted example sound would work best with a more gradual slope.  It turns out that the Cut 1 LFO modulation and Mod Matrix reacted better with a steeper filter slope.
 
2).  I tend to do my synth programming in a standalone or micro-host.  Free from context, outside influences, and potential problems.  The presets always get tested, tweaked, & utilized in a DAW, but don't start out that way.  Tempo / BPM will give the same results no matter what.  But a preset like this is based heavily on sync-to-tempo.
 
In Rapture, there's an Options button (2nd icon of 4 to the left of the RAPTURE logo).  In there, you can defeat the lock to outside MIDI Clock tempo, and use an internal generated tempo.  In most cases, you wouldn't want to use this.  But in a standalone situation, it comes in handy.
 
If it sounds right to you, then you're where you want to be.  When I used StepGen Retriggers, the AMP envelope triggers were set up on every other step.  The steps following each retrigger tended to sound like 'rests'.  So I doubled the tempo for programming (description) simplicity.  In hindsight, I should've just stuck with 80 BPM, the same AMP Step Generator description, change SYNC setting and number of steps, etc.  Whatever it took, as opposed to 'the easiest way'.
 
3).  The first method for the AMG EG was the correct one.  That was a bad analogy on my part.  You want to go top-left (near-instant attack) to bottom-right (silence).  The Sync parameter uses the entire default AMP EG display as its Sync 'increment' (1/2 of a quarter note 'beat' = 1/8 note).
 
As for the "two (additional) nodes)" ...  When you first open up Rapture, you'll see a default node in the bottom-left of every EG display.  It can be moved in level (up & down), but not time (left-to-right).  It comes in handy when you don't (or you do) want an instant high-level start to your envelope.  Your MIDI Note instantly triggers the envelope.  In many cases, an instant level change like that can lead to a "pop" (psychoacoustic, or otherwise).  All it takes is about a fractional millisecond delay to avoid that.
 
"Two (additional) nodes" meant to not count that default node as one of them.  It's easier to just right-click in two spots, create your envelope, and have that default node there for later on.  If you find yourself with a pesky little popping sound (often the culprit is an AMP EG or CUT1 / CUT2 filter EG), all you have to do is nudge your first right-clicked node slightly to the right.
 
4).  Sync vs. Freq.  If you dial any Sync parameter beyond 1/8T or 128, the Sync control goes to OFF, and the Freq control becomes active.  [The fastest way is to left-click + right-click on the Sync parameter.]  You're no longer synchronized to tempo.  The speed/rate is now frequency in Hertz. (cycles per second).  When you hit a MIDI Note, the cycle starts.  If you look at a default LFO display, you're seeing two LFO cycles displayed (somewhat counterintuitively).
 
The only point that I was making there is there is an equivalent rate in Frequency / Hz. to whatever BPM / Sync rate you're using.  [Google BPM to Frequency Calculator or charts.].  Sometimes, you want the MIDI Clock tempo to keep your synchronization timing for you.  Other times, you'll want to have your chords trigger the start of a sequence, envelope or LFO cycle, and have the speed of the events determined by a predictable rate.
 
5).  The Cut1 LFO modulates the Cutoff frequency of Filter 1.  (The same scenario and layout goes for Filter 2.)  In this example, you set an initial frequency point for the LP4 filter to drop off using the left-most CUTOFF knob.  I had you center the control at about a 12 0'clock position.  Mine happened to be set to 500.8 Hz., but it just had to be close to that.
 
The Cut1 Low Frequency Oscillator starts at this initial frequency [500.8 Hz.], and brings it above and below it.  The Sync or Freq determines the speed that it modulates.  The Depth determines how far up & down it deviates from that initial frequency.  Look at the Sine shape in the graph.  It starts at the midpoint [initial Cutoff knob position], goes above it, down through midpoint again, below it, then back to the initial Cutoff knob position.  [Twice over, because 2 complete cycles are represented in the graph.]
 
I had you set the Depth control there to 1200 cents (one octave).  But the LFO is a bipolar modulator (above and below the initial Cutoff position).  I steered you wrong with 600 cents up and 600 cents down.  Apparently, I was calculatiing that the Depth was halved for each of the directions.  But that just sounds like a brain-fart that slipped through from the "speed programming" exercise.
 
I just tested a similar scenario using Pitch and Pan LFOs,  Full Depth Up, and Full Depth down.  So the effective Depth total excusion [up + down] is doubled, not halved.  You can test it yourself:
 
Pitch LFO
Display: Pulse/Square 3
Status: On
Depth: 100
The rest at defaults.
 
Play any MIDI Note.  It sounds like a WWII Euro ambulance (without the Doppler effect).  One semitone [100 cents] up, and one semitone [100 cents] down.  Now, turn the Status to Off.  You have the original played note smack in the middle.
2013/06/23 14:51:53
lawajava
b rock - amazing reply! I learned a lot from this explanation. I'm truly grateful.
2013/06/25 18:59:03
The Band19
Check this out, forward to about 6 mins and 10 seconds in to the video. And Viola... The boys at fab make cool stuff. You can watch the whole vid too, but the part you're interested in is right there at 6:10. It does "exactly" what you want... And since you can trigger it using a percussive track, you can get a nice smooth live feel by playing the midi part in, and if you choose you can quantize, use different beats in different parts, etc...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6IpvmqZLR8
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