Many great performing musicians rarely get a chance to hear what their ensemble sounds like from an audience perspective.
 
They actually hear the music they make differently than the audience does. They hear "stage" sound... even in the practice hall.
 
As the band gets more experienced they gather glimpses of what they actually sound like and eventually they learn to place their sound in the care of someone who has the advantage of working from a vantage point where they can actually hear the band as a whole.
 
In the mean time it can be a struggle for them to reconcile what they have been hearing as performers with what they hear when they get to play the part of the audience vis-a-vis listening to recordings of what they sound like.
 
This is a perfectly natural process in the journey of learning to make recordings.
 
 
 
I think that is the reason why playing them example songs or asking for their favorite examples usually doesn't solve the communication mismatch. They are used to hearing different stuff than the audience hears and it takes a lot of experience to reconcile that.
 
I like being gentle when that happens.
 
Good luck.
 
best regards,
mike
 
 
edit spelling

John T
Some excellent advice in this thread, thanks.
 
I'm going to offer some advice back: those of you who have thrown in some variant of "tell those guys they don't know what they're talking about and then show them the door" need to check yo selves before you wreck yo selves.

This is a reputation-based trade that we're in. Reputation on skill, reputation on time keeping, on getting things done, reputation on not being an ignorant rude jack-ass. The last of those four being nowhere near the least. Try being a working sound engineer with a reputation around town for dissing musicians and see how far you get.

This band is a good band. More importantly, a good band made up of really nice, cool people, who apart from the not-getting-it problem we're having, which is a mutual, cuts-both-ways thing, are an absolute pleasure to work with. I've got zero desire or need to disrespect them or their music in any way. I'd like to help them make it better, is all.

Well said. You find out who really owns a business that is successful and who may have a studio that is for side jobs or the hobbyist approach based on the answers. Reputation is so important...no one realizes this until they walk in our shoes. Having a day gig that pays well doing something else and running a studio for your head or for a little side work doesn't count like it does for guys like John and I. In this economy, praises from clients to the outside world instantly help to gain trust from strangers based on recommendations their friends make. Not to mention, people will pay a little more for someone that goes that extra mile. :)
 
-Danny

John T
Particular thanks to Danny and Jeff, who have brought their reliably wise counsel to the table. Also agree with Randy, re: reference points. I actually already did that, but it kind of highlighted the problem: there's a bit of a gap between what they actually sound like and what they think they sound like. They're not inferior to what they think they are, but they are different.

You're quite welcome. We're all here for each other. I know you pretty much had all the answers and knew what you were going to do ahead of time. BUT...it sure does help to vent or bounce a few questions off of us just for the re-assurance part. Good luck with everything John...those guys are lucky to have you on their side. :)
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi

John T
Particular thanks to Danny and Jeff, who have brought their reliably wise counsel to the table. Also agree with Randy, re: reference points. I actually already did that, but it kind of highlighted the problem: there's a bit of a gap between what they actually sound like and what they think they sound like. They're not inferior to what they think they are, but they are different.

You're quite welcome. We're all here for each other. I know you pretty much had all the answers and knew what you were going to do ahead of time. BUT...it sure does help to vent or bounce a few questions off of us just for the re-assurance part. Good luck with everything John...those guys are lucky to have you on their side. :)
 
-Danny

Well, I rarely disagree with Danny, but we are not all here for each other. I'm here on the off chance Punky Meadows will stop by, see my brilliant advice, and want to hang out. Nothing more!
 
Randy

I want to throw in a little PS to this thread.

It's 5 am, and I've just finished an overdub session with another band, who are best described as "When you and the performers are totally on the same page and rocking it with no doubts".

It's an interesting contrast. When you've got a bunch of people who know what they're going for, you can deliver it for them fairly easily. It almost becomes just a matter of pointing the microphones the right way.

This band were so good at performing and delivering, and so clear about what they wanted to sound like, it was perversely easy. They've made me sound like a genius engineer, simply because you'd have to be the worst engineer of all time to mess this gig up. About 50% of the job was pressing REC and going outside for a smoke.

As you might guess, these were slightly older more seasoned guys. Not old old. The tricky band are about average age 22, the easy band are about average age 26. And man, there's a world of difference there.

It's weird. The first band have agonised and agonised over small details. And I had to work really hard to get any of it working at all, and moreover, to get everyone feeling OK about it.

This other band are all "John, we love you, this is amazing". And I've hardly had to do anything to get the takes down. Aside from a little bit of sensible tracking technique, I've really not done much at all. Microphones pointing the right way, everyone making the sound they intend to make. Simple as that. Doesn't matter how many times it happens, it's always kind of a revelation.
 

I have always believed that when a band is great our job as engineers is incredibly easy and I agree with everything you have said in this post John. It seems to me that the other band that you thought were great are not so great at all in fact. Now you have encountered a much better band where they are all on the same page it is just so much easier and better.
 
Great bands don't agonise over stupid details, they just get down to it and play and play incredibly well. It is so good it is ridiculous in fact.
 
I have just mastered a Jazz album featuring probably the finest players here in Australia. Unbelievable piano player, drummer, bass player sax player and female singer so good it was incredible. The mix was great and I know the mix engineer did not have to do anything to get it in fact. The mastering was so easy I almost feel embarrassed about the amount of money I charged and how long it took. Reason, the quality of the band.
 
When you encounter great playing at any age it is totally different and on another level again.
 
I audition bands before I will even consider recording them. I have a pretty high standard to get over. If they are not up to it I just say no. I only record the type of band you have just described now. Sure it means maybe less jobs but they are usually great, easy and very enjoyable. It also means every job I do sounds killer and that is good for me as well. People rave about my production but what they are really hearing is the band, not the production. In fact good production is when it almost goes out of view just exposing the band for what it is.
 
People rave about the amazing engineering from the past. Floyd, Beatles, Steely Dan you name it. But the fact is any of us could have done the same thing. It is the greatness of the musicians that shines through.
 
And that is why I almost get mad when I hear people on the forum going on with so much silly stuff about 64 bit processing, mics and preamps, outboard gear, all useless if the band cannot play. But what happens when the band or the artist can play. All the gear and technology just disappears into oblivion. Greatness in musicianship and delivery seriously overpower all the technology involved from that point on. Always has been that way and still is. Sure it nice when you have both, that is even better but if it is only one I will go with the musicianship first everytime.
 
Sorry for the rave but excited for you John having experienced this. It throws a different perspective on things.

John T
I want to throw in a little PS to this thread.

It's 5 am, and I've just finished an overdub session with another band, who are best described as "When you and the performers are totally on the same page and rocking it with no doubts".

It's an interesting contrast. When you've got a bunch of people who know what they're going for, you can deliver it for them fairly easily. It almost becomes just a matter of pointing the microphones the right way.

This band were so good at performing and delivering, and so clear about what they wanted to sound like, it was perversely easy. They've made me sound like a genius engineer, simply because you'd have to be the worst engineer of all time to mess this gig up. About 50% of the job was pressing REC and going outside for a smoke.

As you might guess, these were slightly older more seasoned guys. Not old old. The tricky band are about average age 22, the easy band are about average age 26. And man, there's a world of difference there.

It's weird. The first band have agonised and agonised over small details. And I had to work really hard to get any of it working at all, and moreover, to get everyone feeling OK about it.

This other band are all "John, we love you, this is amazing". And I've hardly had to do anything to get the takes down. Aside from a little bit of sensible tracking technique, I've really not done much at all. Microphones pointing the right way, everyone making the sound they intend to make. Simple as that. Doesn't matter how many times it happens, it's always kind of a revelation.
 

Great post John and an excellent "P.S." This drives my point home to people when I say "you don't have to work on eqing sounds for days when you have the right sounds and the right players."
 
There really isn't much more to do other than press record. The material seems to mix itself and when you add in good players, you're not sitting there messing with compression settings and trying to polish a turd whilst worrying about details that no one will notice or even care about. What you've experienced here is how it is in the big leagues for the most part unless they have to work with one of those artists that have substituted the word "unique" for the word "greatness" as a cover up.
 
I hope every engineer gets to experience this many times because it really does make you enjoy what you do so much more. It's sort of like the girl you date that is the beast from hell for 5 days...but on the weekends, she turns into this unbelievable gal that makes those 5 days of hell worth it. LOL! :)
 
Don't get me wrong, we all like a challenge band to come in once in a while. But when the challenge part exceeds the talent and the reason for the band to be in existence, that's when it gets to be a drag really fast. In a sense I sort of miss that at times but then I think back on the times where I was so frustrated I wanted out....and it makes me feel happy to have paid my dues to where I can be more selective as to who I work with. But I have to say, quite a few of those challenging bands helped me to get where I am due to them pushing me over the edge. :) Glad to hear you have one that's allowing you to really enjoy what you do.
 
-Danny

 
:-)
 
I think one of the great advantages of starting out by sweeping floors, and hauling gear in and out, where the big boys and girls play and work is that you witness this first hand and realize that bands and staff can and do move forward without agonizing over silly stuff.
 
Indeed, one of the primary reasons I don't spend 100% of my time working with musicians is that I enjoy working with easy to work with musicians 99% of the time I choose to do so.
 
Working with happy musicians leaves you in a position where the odd occasion of working with people that are not able to be satisfied doesn't effect your big picture.
 
:-)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Oh and another thing; experiencing great music made with immediacy leaves a person like me suspecting that the myriad of interviews with engineers, producers and musicians who describe how they had to put out 29 mics on 7 guitar cabinets while using a measuring tape to get that perfect sound are just doing it all for the purpose of entertainment (and accounts receivable) rather than a sincere commitment to sonic craftsmanship.
 
best regards,
mike

Buddy Holly apparently had the easy solution.
I like the idea of a band having somebody in it that
knows how the band sounds and how to capture it.
Avoids many issues.

Everyone's tastes are different and not everyone is thinking "commercial success" when they express their sound desires. Kurt Cobain hated the production on "Nevermind" - he called it "candy-ass." But to me it's a great sounding record, and the record buying public obviously thought so too. However, its commercial success didn't change his opinion of it. 
 
I'd definitely want to hear other examples of the genre in question (if they even have a definable genre). For some genres, a lo-fi sound is part and parcel of the experience. But that doesn't mean it can't be done well. Take Boards of Canada - the output from their heyday is purposefully lo-fi in some ways. They recorded to tape over and over, lots of wow and flutter etc, and the portrait they were trying to paint was "nostalgia." There are some here I know who hate this obsession with sounding retro and analog, but I think if it's done well then it sounds great. Their newest release has all but lost that vibe and they're now being panned for sounding too slick. I agree, but then again it's the content of their music that's gone downhill as well. I don't know if the one had anything to do with the other, but despite the excellent production quality of their latest record, it sounds very bland to me. 
 
There's other music I love that sounds less than hi-fi, or at least part of it does. The bass on Radiohead's "Knives Out" sounds like it's coming from next door. But in a great way that suits the song. DJ Shadow's "Entroducing" from 1996 is decidedly lo-fi but is considered probably the best instrumental hip-hop album of all time. There's no way a professional engineer would have let it come out sounding like that. But the style is just one man, some vinyl records and a lo-fi sampler, and his fans wouldn't have it any other way.