ChuckC
Danny,
Well unfortunately I sold a few months ago I sold my V-kit. Too many freaking bands were just all against using it & if they did, the drummers (most of whom are not used to playing on an electric kit) would complain about the feel, Meanwhile I was getting pissed at all the cymbal triggers I was replacing/repairing because they'd smash the sh#& out of them.... I like what I am getting from acoustic kits better anyway (in general) but, I wouldn't make that jump without a net. I did buy Drumagog. Which is great for most stuff, I haven't figured out how to use it on Hi hats yet as it seems more complex there to get them to act right, but otherwise it can be a lifesaver. Bro, how do you create a new gog file of say a great snare someone brings in to use later? tell me tell me tell me!!!!
This drummer recorded here once before, about a year ago & and was one of the many whinning about the V kit. He played better on the acoustic this time but some hits were just weird. Yep, I should have noticed during tracking or before that actually, but what could I have done even then? Say "hey dude.... kick like a man! and a consistent man at that!" ? The last kick hit of every song was the loudest/hardest as he hit the final crash, he'd stomp that pedal every time. For that hit (and it could be used for others also) I found that when you slip edit & fade the kick track out at the end of the song you can just make the fade a little longer and slide it back until the hit is mid fade thus lowering the level, which by the way also gives you the same type of visual representation (shrinking the wave form) like what
Jeff Evans is talking about. Try that Jeff and see if that is along the lines of what you are wanting.
I admit, a limiter is not, the ideal way here.... I actually have used my 2nd kick track (the one with the inner mic) to trigger a gog kick (love that damn Yamaha kick!) and have it set to 100% blend on that track, then coupled with my out front mic of my kick. The correct way would be to automate the input levels of the tracks so they all hit the compressors (and drumagog) more consistently rather than trying to do this at the bus level after the damage is done. I know.... I got lazy and tried to automate once rather than the 2 separate tracks.
I hear ya Chuck. V-Drums aren't for everyone. I wish I would have known you were selling them....I would have at least tried to talk you into keeping the brain. I take my TD-10 or TD-20 with me everywhere I do drums along with my DDrum triggers. I'm with ya on liking the acoustic kits better....I do as well. Nothing beats a really good kit being mic'd just right then having a drummer play the thing that knows how to play. But even there and I mean this....all the big studio's are using triggers too for safety net purposes. Just about every kit you hear these days is using a hybrid method. Don't let anyone try to fool you. Granted, there are a few die-hard studio's out there still doing completely real drums, but most of the big boys that matter are all using hybrid's or at least a few samples here and there.
When you listen to the newer music, the hits are all exactly the same. Not robotic "same" but you don't hear an edge hit come out of nowhere on a snare drum. When it's supposed to be a center hit or a rim shot, it never differentiates other than on snare fills, rolls, certain flams etc. Even there...the drum modules today are so sick, it would be too easy for someone to try and pull the wool over our eyes. So don't ever worry about being pure or not unless you get a band in there that is absolutely against sampling/resampling. The biggest ones against that sort of thing are the jazz guys and blues guys. Rightfully so in my opinion because you either mic the kit right for them and their style of music, or you tell them to go somewhere else because being natural is what those styles are all about....little clams and all.
As for gog files...I don't know how it works with the latest version of Drumagog. I never bought it because 4.0 does exactly what I need. But for me on the older one, I create my samples in Sonar based on velocity. For example, let's say we're using a real snare from a client kit. I get behind the kit and hit the snare in the center starting light until I'm hitting it like I mean it. This may be 15-20 hits.
Then I create another track and hit all edge hits 15-20 times like I did before.
Then another track and it's all rim shots. When the 3 tracks are all done, I start on track one and cut up all the samples removing all the dead space on each and put them in order according to level. From there, I get a general idea on what the level is on each hit and normalize each hit so that it's where it needs to be.
I do this on the other two tracks as well. When I'm done, I click on each sample one at a time and label it "Pearl Center -15" all the way down to "Pearl Center -1" and do the rest of them like that with the only change being instead of "Center" the others will be either edge or rim.
From there, I'll have 3 groups of exported wave files that are cut up just right with their start and end points. I open Drumagog (or even BFD because it too sports importing your own sample pools) create a new gog file inside of it, and then import my samples from lowest dB level to highest and it allows me to split things into "groups". So for group one of the gog, I have all the snare center hits from lowest dB to highest. Then, I switch groups and bring in the edge hits, then the rimshot hits. This will allow me to mess with the "position" knob and change from center, rim or edge on the drum. OR, you can just set it up so random samples hit and mute ones you don't want to sound. You can then set your thresholds for what sounds you mostly want to hear if need be in situations where you may not need light snare drum hits or little ghost notes.
That's just a rough idea...there are loads of options and ways to make Drumagog work for you. You'll just need to dive into them a bit. To me, it's one of the most powerful AND important modules ever made really. Like bitflipper mentioned, with a mic, you can create drums in seconds. I was telling a very good friend of mine about Drumagog on the phone one night.
As I was talking to him and telling him about it, I grabbed a 57 and started barking beats into my pc with my mouth. I did a kick beat, a snare beat and some hats. He's laughing at me over the phone. I bring in Drumagog, process the audio and then send him the bundle file so he could hear before and after. He cracked up laughing and bought it that night. It's simply amazing once you dine into it. The new one is even more intense with the new way it processes hats. We may have it at my other studio....but I don't remember purchasing it or using it. Joey my chief engineer down there always wants the latest and greatest stuff, so he jumps on me to buy something when it's worth it. I seem to remember something with Drumagog 5, but can't remember if we bought it. I'm going to check. LOL!
Anyway, if you read your manual it will explain it pretty easy. That's what I did to learn how to do the samples for 4.0. It walked me right through it and was easy. Keep in mind, you do NOT have to do 15-20 hits per drum with edge, center and rim. You can just do 5 on a rim shot snare or center hit and call it a day. I was just more thorough because I really get into the whole sampling thing. So don't let anything in my post scare you. 5 samples of a drum using different strokes will be fine. Drumagog will put them in order or you can mute anything you don't want to be heard while using the samples. For example, I just did a new snare the other night. I love everything about it except for one hit. When that one hit comes through, it just doesn't sound like it fits for this song. So I highlight that sample in Drumagog and press the mute button. You'll see man...once you dive into it, you'll be glad you did. :)
On what to do if you get a drummer like that again? Yeah, try to see if you can get him to hit a little harder and if you can, try to turn up the pre on your kick mic's. You may get a little unnecessary noise, but a good gate or slip editing will take care of that. You shouldn't have to boost it to the point on other things REALLY bleeding into it...but pushing your pre's in a situation like this may be the answer though you want to stay away from stuff like that if you can help it. Then again, it all depends on what sort of levels you're getting going in. If that kick is registering -20 dB, that mic needs to be pumped up a bit. I try to peak at -6 and sort of average about -10 on everything here. It works perfectly for me whether some guru tells me it's right or wrong. So next time, have a good look at your levels and ALWAYS ALWAYS record a little of each instrument before you go for "the print" to make sure what you see level wise is what you are getting print wise. Good luck brother.
-Danny