Hey There,
 
I'm using a Zoom R16 to drop tracks onto then exporting into Sonar PE6. I have a new set of songs we are working on and I'm having a hard time getting crisp, tight mids out of my mix. Come to mention it, the highs and lows sound like crap too. If anyone could take a listen to this rough mix and let me know if it is fixable with mastering or if it should be reworked rentirely. I've pushed the mids in an attempt to compensate but I don't think it's working out. Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The song is called One Thing. https://soundcloud.com/search?q=picklebunker
 
Thanks alot.

All the instruments seem to occupy a narrow range of frequency. The arrangements are really full so mixing that stuff so it seems distinct will be a challenge
 
The mixes do sort of sound mid pushed right now but I could get used to it.
 
Mastering isn't going to change the character... if you want something crisper and tighter you need to keep working on the mix.
 
This stuff could be mixed by a 100 people with 100 different solutions to the puzzle and it will be hard to know which one you guys will pick as the best until you do. The idea of making the mids sound crisp and tight just seems like a vague description.
 
The songs seem fine. You just need to make some choices and decide when and where each instrument is going to be prominent and what is going to take a back seat on occasions.
 
The drums seem a bit loud on each song... and that probably makes it hard to layer other stuff in while preserving any sense of space.
 
The intro to the All Along the Watchtower cover is a good example... you start by filling up all the space so when you hit the 2nd verse and fill up all the rest of the space there is no space left to fill up. That doesn't make it bad, or anything like that, but it does make it sort of impossible to satisfy a brief that calls for "tight and crisp".
 
It seems like you need to get a focus on what YOU want and just go for it.
 
You're probably going to get some advice to pan left or right and clear-out-the-center. That will probably help, but the basic in your face nature of the performances is going to be part of the sound unless you make decisions about bringing stuff forward while sending stuff backwards as you feature bits and pieces with cameos.
 
The All Along the Watchtower cover is, again, a good example. That is a song which was first electrified by a trio while your version has a bunch of guitar parts layered, each with a thickening effect, and layers of background vocals as well as prominent drums. You know what, I like it too. :-)
 
You're just going to have to make some tough decisions.
 
all the best,
mike
 
 

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the advice. Didn't expect you to listen to all the songs but thanks for doing so. Regarding finding space for everything, is it a good way to start by removing some higher frequencies to push some instruments back in mix, or by adding reverbs? I know I have a ton of tracks in here which makes it more difficult in the long run and requires a more experienced engineer. I've noticed that some other projects I've done, when recorded through a different mixer, seem to have a tighter sound. Is this an effect of better preamps?
 
I know the drums are a little loud right now and I intend to pull them back a bit. Do overhead drum mics ever get compressed or have reverbs put on them or is the natural room sound preferable. Are panned toms a good way to go? I know these are vague  questions and I'm researching ways to clarify everything in the mix but I'm wondering if my equipment isn't good enough to put out a reasonable project or I just need to learn more with what I have.
 
Thanks

Yeah, there is a lot going on in the mids there dude.  You have a decent sounding kick, sounds like it's dominant in the low end so work with that for starters.  Say for instance, if your kick is going to own & dominate the space between 40 hz up to around 60 hz primarily, then your bass should roll off at 60hz (which at the moment... I don't here any bass guitar down that low, it's all mids)   try a highpass on the bass around 60hz  and push more down there, back off the mids a bit on the bass (leave some room there for the guitars & vocals).  Rock guitars usually roll off around 75-80 hz  but their dominant frequencies are generally much higher 400hz & up.,  Male vocals are dominant typically in the 800hz-1k So you might dip the guitar a little here to carve out a space for them.  Low pass the guitars around say ehhh  13k for starters and leave the space above that for cymbals, snare attack, vocal sybliance etc.  to get some air in the upper end. 
    
    These are all very rough figures for you as I don't have your project in front of me.... but It may help you start to understand that for a mix to work together the instruments fit like a puzzle kind of.  and they do interlock to some extent...   The bass may need 60 hz to feel strong, but it also needs some 2-3 k for clarity (just not more in this region than the guitar as this is the guitars domain.  Alternately  you may need to boost a little 250-230hz to give the guitar some balls! so notch the bass back a bit there.  Do you follow me?  Then you start to get clarity when you keep the instruments from masking one another.  Hope that helps you some and sends you in the right direction!

Chuck,
 
Great info. As long as I can have a starting block like what you've drafted above, I should be able to improve my mix and tweak the frequencies a bit to fit the individual tracks. Can you let me know if compression of any sort will fit into this scenario? Basic of course, as I'm no expert at using it. I understand that compression is used to handle different peak/low levels and squashes the dynamic range, but I'm not sure how to use it to fit different elements into a mix. Can you clarify "roll off" in your descriptions above? Does it mean that frequencies above/below should be rolled off on a high/low pass filter, or that that frequency range should be dipped?
 
thanks, I really appreciate your advice.

Yes generally, most  rock tracks will require some amount of compression.  The amounts and ratios vary widely and it is a vital tool that can enhance or destroy the dynamics of your music.  You should check out some books and then search youtube for tutorials like this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bfHByaLR0Q
 
It make take some time (months to years) to really start to use them properly but you have to start sometime to ever reach that goal.
By roll-off, yes I mean: roll them off with a high/low pass filter.  Start with a bout a 6db per octave curve/Q (the speed or arch at which the curve rolls off from the starting frequency point).

I haven't had time to listen to the tracks but from the op and Mike's description the problem is in arrangement.  What I do in my own stuff is layer, and then layer again, rinse and repeat.  Once I have a nice mid-range mush going I start dropping ENTIRE INSTRUMENTS out.  A section at a time.  I try to keep the rhythm stuff - one or two guitars, bass and drums - and drop in all the extras one at a time.  Once it starts thickening up and turning into lumpy gravy drop one of the extra lines out.  It is very easy to overdue songs between unlimited tracks and cheap storage.  When you had 16 tracks and a tape cost a couple of hundred dollars you had to keep the song pared down (realitively speaking). 
 
Strip the song down to its basics and slowly introduce the ear candy, thick backing vocals, and other such lines and use them, one or two at a time, to add some spice and variety of your hopefully engaging skeleton of a song.
 
@

Hi Pickle,
 I didn't hear anything that indicated that your tracking techniques or the choice of gear was holding the mix back.
 
 The way I see it, your expectation seems to differ from what you have done to this point. You just need to get a handle on the expressive aspects of mixing and get to a point where you can visualize the step by step process to get where you want.
 
 I know it sounds like a cop out but my statement about how 100 people could do a great mix of these tracks and at this point there's no practical way to know which one you'll like until you've heard it is the best description of the situation I can think of.
 
 It's all a normal part of the journey.
 
 I don't want to ignore your questions so I'll take a stab at answering.
 
 Compressing drum room or OH mics is routine for some people including me.
 
 I like panning toms.
 
 
 Get a basic drum mix going, run it through a bus, turn it down lower than the drums are now. Throw the lead vocals up front and center. Now blend in everything in between and keep focused on your idea of crisp and tight. As you get further along you can find places where you want the drums to pop up on occasion.
 
 If you can't get the effect you are after start listening to stuff that does have the quality you have an interest in and deconstruct it in your head until you see how just a few things are actually featured at any moment in a modern tight and punchy mix. You have to sort of unlock the puzzle and then put it back together with the very personal taste and aesthetic that you have in mind.
 
 Go for it.
 
 best regards,
mike
 
 
 
 

Chuck - Nice link re. compression. Easy to understand and a step by step to help nubes create a starting method. Thanks for the advice on eq. I'll use it.
 
AT - That's a really good, simple way to narrow down what's creating the soup. Another good thing to make common practice. Thanks
 
Mike - Thanks again. I'll make it happen. You made a good point that I brain farted on. Listen to stuff I might want it to sound like. A-B it. I haven't done that yet but it's a no-brainer.
 
Al