1. I setup a project with a number of tracks
2. My aim is to have the average around -12db on the completed levels.
3. No plugins are used on the tracks just setting levels.
4. Six Bus's used and all fader on Bus's at 0db
5. Pulled fown all fader on tracks and then went about setting levels
6 Main Output set to Mono and only one speaker.
7 Set levels and I have now a nice setup to start mixing.
Setup other DAW and did the same level adjustment but look at the difference in the fader positions and outputs on tracks on the mains the average is -12
Both used the same audio interface. Is i t sonething I'm doing wrong or is that just the way different daws work.
Do faders work better on the audio if pushed up closer to unity and reduce the gain on each track?
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Well fitzj it is interesting. I wonder if it has got anything to do with the way Sonar is summing mono. I actually prefer to leave my DAW in stereo all the time and sum L+R outside the DAW all together. You need to calibrate your DAW actually before you do anything. Many people don't and don't actually know what levels are being sent anywhere.
 
The thing to do is to get a hold of some test tones and do some comparisons. You really need to decide on a K system reference like K-14 for example. You need to load a test tone recorded at K-14 onto a track. The test tone should be stereo as well so panning laws do not come into play. A (stereo) VU meter VST needs to be inserted onto that track and the VU calibrated so K-14 shows 0dB VU. (Note: even if you don't have a VU VST you can switch Sonar's meters into rms but they will show 3dB lower so for a K-14 test tone the Sonar rms meter will show -17dB, just be aware of that, in peak mode they will show the correct level eg -14)
 
Now with the tone playing that VU VST will reach Odb VU. Once one track is calibrated all the rest will follow. Obviously as more tracks are playing the track levels come down accordingly to keep the buss levels at the reference.
 
Buses should be at unity and that same level will be present on the buss. The buss should feed the masterbuss and it too should show 0dB VU. I have got 4 DAW's here and when I do this it is the same for all of them. (Sonar 8.5, Studio One, Pro Tools and Logic)
 
It is also good to measure the signal level leaving your audio interface. You need a digital voltmeter that can show true rms as well. The signal should be measured across the two hot pins of the balanced output as well. I get exactly +4 dBu leaving my digital mixer when I work at K-14. Yamaha have chosen that as their reference so that is why I tend to work there most of the time. It is good to know what ref level produces +4 dBu leaving your interface. This measurement should be actually done before anything above. It at least tells you what ref the interface makers have chosen.

Many thanks jeff for a very interesting reply. This is a short video showing what I did with a -20db file from Digital Domain. The large output is my Rme interface.
What do you think?
http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/fitzj/media/k-systemtest-20.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
 
 
 

fitz, try messing with your pan law in preferences/driver settings. Go to your help file on that screen and read about what each pan law in Sonar does. The different pan laws will affect how loud your tracks show on your meters. This should sort you out as soon as you choose a pan law that works for you. The only slight issue you may have is...projects recorded in older versions of Sonar with different pan laws will reflect that if you were to open them. Meaning, you'd have to re-adjust the fader levels on your songs if a different pan law was used in a previous version. Good luck.....hope this helps.
 
-Danny

Hi John, that video is so low res I cannot really see anything such as the markings on the various meters etc. Perhaps a high res still shot might be better. Might be wise to alter the skin for the Klanghelm meters too. The cream coloured one is best for ease of reading.
 
Can you get a sinewave tone on there instead of noise as well. It is a bit more precise. I can upload tones at various levels on my Soundcloud if it will help.
 
Not sure if different pan laws are going to create such a difference in the fader positions as originally shown. But Danny may be right too in that they could. Stereo test tones on stereo tracks eliminate the errors.

Thanks Jeff.
Yes please up load the files and I will test again later today or tonight.  No problem I will do a better movie with sound. I cannot see how pan laws come into play yet Danny as I am just setting levels no plugins and no  panning setup.

I was going to mention that you may be mixing and matching the choices of meter ballistics, and now that I see the video it seems as if you are.
 
Make sure that when you compare the meter readings that all the meters are set to the same function and the same ballistics.
 
You have choices like
 
Peak,
RMS,
Peak/VU
VU
 
just for starters.
 
If you use a sine wave you will not need to worry as much about ballistics but you still need to think about frequency response and weighting.
 
It will be helpful to acknowledge that RMS and VU metering are two different things and so you can expect to see small differences between a accurate model of a VU meter and a simple RMS meter. The VU meter is weighted for frequency dependence and the RMS meter is not.
 
Finally, if you are using RMS meters inside your DAW you will need to know if your DAW conforms to the AES17 spec or if it is calibrated to some other spec. For example; You will see a 3dB difference if you compare SONAR's RMS meters to a DAW that uses the AES17 spec.
 
My guess is that your observations are of a combination of factors and that it why it seems like a simple answer will not describe the circumstance. 
 
best regards,
mike
 
 
 

Thanks Mike
No need to upload sine files Jeff. I created some from sound forge. I will upload a video hopefully later. 

Mike has added unnecessary (correct but not needed at this point) information and may cause confusion.
 
I have uploaded various test signals here: They are downloadable.
 
https://soundcloud.com/jeff-evans
 
Ballistics do not come into play with continuous tones. The Klanghelm meters are not frequency weighted either and will show the correct level. The differences between rms and VU metering is irrelevant for the purposes of this test.
 
Procedure:
 
Download one of the test tones. eg -20 dB FS. Create a stereo track and place the audio on that track. Set track fader to unity. You may want to loop this as it is only short.
Insert the Klanghelm meter on the track and set the calibration to -20 dB.
Play the track and the meter should read 0 dB VU (sonar rms track displays the rms value incorrectly as -23 dB, ignore. (Studio One will show the correct level as -20 dB ie correct spec. Note too when you put the Master meter in Studio One into K system mode and set the correct ref level it will show 0 dB VU as well, nice)
 
Check your buss levels. Set to unity as well. Placing the Klanghelm meter on a buss will also display 0 dB VU (as long as calibration is also set to -20) Repeat for master. Master should also indicate 0 dB VU.
 
If you repeat this in the other DAW's you should get identical results. That will show that  the other DAW's are consistent.
 
You can do the same procedure using the -14 dB FS signal. You will however need to recal the Klanghelm meters for -14 now. Everything will appear the same. The difference is that the whole system is running 6 dB louder than the -20 test tone. With the -20 dB FS tones the available headroom is 20 dB. With the -14 dB FS tones the available headroom is now less at only 14 dB. Less headroom but louder overall system level.
 
After doing this if you put the -20 dB (or -14) pink noise test signal (It should also be stereo and I have included that too on my Soundcloud) on the track you will see it does not quite read 0 dB VU. It will reach about -1 dB on the VU meter. This is normal.
 
Sorry John I did not see your post. You can always use my tones to make sure yours are correct which I am sure they are. With sinewaves the very tops of the wave should reach the required level. However creating pink noise waves the correct level is not that easy. My pink noise test signals came from the Bob Katz website. He has a very accurate -20 dB pink noise wave there. I have just added 6 db of gain to that to create the -14 dB version.
 
Note Neither of these sinewave test levels will necessarily produce +4 dBu output from your interface either. That depends on what the interface maker has decided what the ref level should be. But you can figure it out. For example if RME have decided that -18 dB will produce the standard output level of +4 dbu then when the -14 dB wave is present the output will be hot by 4db eg +8 dBu and the -20 dB wave will be slightly low eg +2 dBu. The -14 and -20 ref levels are K system levels but there is no reason why you could not run your system at -18 instead. I use -14 because my Yamaha digital mixer is calibrated there and also so is Harrison Mixbus too. I do switch over to -20 for very high quality productions though. (slightly more headroom than -18)
 
 
 

The statement I made and that is quoted below is factually incorrect:
 
"The VU meter is weighted for frequency dependence and the RMS meter is not."
 
What I should have said was that most VU meters respond to frequencies with varying response even though they are not supposed too.
 
I think I should clarify that to both acknowledge the mistake and to minimize confusion.
 
best regards,
mike