2013/10/23 06:38:30
kev11111111111111
Hi !
I read recently about this producer who used samples galore in a song he did. It wasn't full phrases or loops though... he was taking 'clips' such as the attack portion of a guitar sample,or the release. In other words most of the samples were likely to be under a second,even half of a second in a lot of cases.These samples were then blended with others to make a new sound.
How does that work with copyright ? Is the law still as strict in these cases as it is in say a 5 second loop ? If I were to find a decent isolated clarinet staccato sample and then loaded that into a sampler to make a new melody with it - is that still a breach of copyright ? I know it would be easy to layer the sound so the original 0.5 sec sample wouldn't be recognizable - I've got a feeling this is pretty common practice too  (the producer I mentioned above made a lot of money with this record so I wouldnt be surprised if a lot of producers are doing this ),but what are the legal implications ? Anyone any ideas ?!!
Thanks
Kev
 
2013/10/23 08:26:30
Guitarhacker
Copyright still applies.... there is no "free samples" or a time length restriction.  If you didn't create it and someone else did.... it's covered by the laws.
 
You might wish to contact the Harry Fox Agency since they are one of the largest clearing houses for music licensing in the world. I don't deal with using copyrighted material so I'm not completely up to speed on the newer rules.... but I do believe they have a new category for streaming music and downloads as well as samples. They would be the experts in this new area of copyright that has been emerging in the last few years as the use of downloads and samples becomes  more popular.
 
http://www.harryfox.com/public/DigitalLicenseslic.jsp
 
I didn't see anything specifically related to samples and licensing, so look into this and contact HFA for the word from the ones who oversee this licensing. Samples are not free no matter how short.... so do it legally.... or make your own sounds from scratch and you don't need to worry.
2013/10/23 09:28:24
kev11111111111111
Ah ok,I thought as much.You need a license no matter the length of the sample.
 
Thanks for the link but I'm not sure this is the right site for me after reading the FAQ - its says
 
 Among other uses of music, the following cannot be licensed using HFA’s Songfile. Click on each item for more information: 

Recordings with samples 
 
I think the standard procedure is to contact the publisher and pay an upfront (quite hefty !!) fee and then make an agreement to split the royalties. For rookie producers such as myself its just not worth the cost of using a recognized sample in my work. You would of thought though if you were just using a 0.5 portion of a sample which isn't recognizable as belonging to a tune,the cost of using it wouldnt be as severe ?! I guess at the end of the day when clearing a sample,you gaining permission for the musical aspect and the recording aspect,so maybe they would treat it the same way and charge the same.I dont know !!LOL. Thanks for your input anyway
 
Kev
 
2013/10/23 11:13:25
bitflipper
People have been sued for using James Brown's grunts and shouts. Kinda silly, really, to steal a recording of something you could just as easily create yourself and be legally in the clear. OTOH, the Amen Break is the foundation of entire pop genres and nobody ever paid a nickel to the guy who created it.
 
The safest route is the way television productions handle it. They obtain or buy libraries of pre-cleared material which can then be used without the hassle of getting permission from each copyright holder. Most of these are pay-as-you-use libraries: you get gobs of material and only pay for what you actually put into a TV show or commercial.
 
For most, it's easier and cheaper to buy libraries outright that have an explicit license to use them any way you like. Companies such as Nine Volt Audio, for example, specialize in such products.
2013/10/23 11:38:35
AT
Harry Fox (as far as I know) is for copyright of the song, not using someone else's mechanical recording of the song (which would include the sampling rights).  If you want to re-record a song, they are the company to write. I'm not sure who you would contact for samples - I'd start w/ the distributor/record company.  They tend to hold on to those rights.  If you sign a contract these days for any content it will include the boilerplate "across the known universe" and such terminology.  
 
Legally, you can't use a "sample" no matter how short - since is someone else's creation.  In practise, you need to ask yourself two questions.  1. Is your work likely to get wide play?  If you put it in a store or get placement on the radio you are setting yourself up for a world of hurt. 2.  Is anyone likely to recognize the stolen work after it has gone through your audio chop shop?  If you steal a kick hit and layer it w/ two others and compress and notch the bejebers out of it, I doubt if anyone will recognize it.  You still have to sleep w/ yourself at night, but if the "sound" is so altered, what is the point of using it in the first place?  The Wooster Group (one of NYC's leading avant-garde theater companies - Willem Dafoe,  Steve Busemi, Spalding Gray) did a take-off of Henry Miller back in the 80's.  Mr. Miller sent a cease and desist letter.  So they kept the same lines they had used, but re-arranged the words so they were gibberish.  That worked legally and artistically, but only because everyone was in on joke.
 
good luck.
2013/10/24 13:38:10
kev11111111111111
bitflipper
People have been sued for using James Brown's grunts and shouts. Kinda silly, really, to steal a recording of something you could just as easily create yourself and be legally in the clear. OTOH, the Amen Break is the foundation of entire pop genres and nobody ever paid a nickel to the guy who created it.
 
The safest route is the way television productions handle it. They obtain or buy libraries of pre-cleared material which can then be used without the hassle of getting permission from each copyright holder. Most of these are pay-as-you-use libraries: you get gobs of material and only pay for what you actually put into a TV show or commercial.
 
For most, it's easier and cheaper to buy libraries outright that have an explicit license to use them any way you like. Companies such as Nine Volt Audio, for example, specialize in such products.


Hi !
Its fairly understandable for record companies to wanna sue artists for totally taking off a record,like the J Brown example you mention.I'm not talking about riffs though,I mean more sampling lots of differant sounds (Short sounds !! under 1 sec) and combining them into something new. So it might comprise of attacks,sustains,releases etc of a mixture of samples and then all these things combined to make a new sound.The end result would be a good sound made from samples but one thats not recognizable as being taken of a record.
 
I know about the Amen Break,I think I saw a video about it on youtube ! Yes it sounds like nearly everyone has done something with this sample - it surprises me that the person who created it didnt get anything back money wise for it..
 
I use sample libraries.Thanks for the pointer on Nine Volt Audio,I'll check them out ! As for the pay as you use libraries,thats something to consider I guess if I ever got a commission to write for a show and I'd know the music was used just in the context of the show,so yep thanks for this idea.
 
Thks for your input
 
Kev
 
2013/10/24 14:13:18
kev11111111111111
AT
Harry Fox (as far as I know) is for copyright of the song, not using someone else's mechanical recording of the song (which would include the sampling rights).  If you want to re-record a song, they are the company to write. I'm not sure who you would contact for samples - I'd start w/ the distributor/record company.  They tend to hold on to those rights.  If you sign a contract these days for any content it will include the boilerplate "across the known universe" and such terminology.  
 
Legally, you can't use a "sample" no matter how short - since is someone else's creation.  In practise, you need to ask yourself two questions.  1. Is your work likely to get wide play?  If you put it in a store or get placement on the radio you are setting yourself up for a world of hurt. 2.  Is anyone likely to recognize the stolen work after it has gone through your audio chop shop?  If you steal a kick hit and layer it w/ two others and compress and notch the bejebers out of it, I doubt if anyone will recognize it.  You still have to sleep w/ yourself at night, but if the "sound" is so altered, what is the point of using it in the first place?  The Wooster Group (one of NYC's leading avant-garde theater companies - Willem Dafoe,  Steve Busemi, Spalding Gray) did a take-off of Henry Miller back in the 80's.  Mr. Miller sent a cease and desist letter.  So they kept the same lines they had used, but re-arranged the words so they were gibberish.  That worked legally and artistically, but only because everyone was in on joke.
 
good luck.


 Ok thanks for clearing that about Harry Fox.
 
For both questions its not really that relevant to me - I dont sample of records and I dont expect to release something with someone elses sample on any kind of scale.I just want to understand the implications of it better after reading this article http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul12/articles/it-0712.htm
Its the producer of Gotye. What really grabbed my attention was this quote -
 
A very short Luiz Bonfa acoustic guitar sample provided the first spark; de Backer then constructed the entire arrangement as a gigantic sample collage, partly using extensively manipulated one-note samples from vinyl records and other sources, and partly sampling himself playing individual notes on various instruments.
 
Which sounds amazingly cool to me !!!! One note samples from vinyl and other sources....this is what got me thinking,well thats great but what are the legal implications ?? Hence my post on here. I wonder if this producer cleared these samples and I wonder if I was to do something similar,whether I'd have to clear them too.
 
I've been sampling for about a year using sample libraries and I'm slowly getting into more depth behind the sampling process.The idea of taking attacks / releases is something I'm playing more and more with in my own work.I guess its safe to just carry on using the sample libraries I've bought,but it does make you wonder what the other possibilities are,especially after reading articles such as these in SOS !!
 
Thanks
 
Kev
 
 
2013/10/24 18:06:53
Guitarhacker
Harry Fox Agency is not for filing or obtaining a copyright.  Yes, they work with copyrighted material BUT.... you must apply for a copyright with the US Library of Congress, not HFA.
 
HFA simply acts as a middle man for the vast majority of copyright holders who do not wish to handle the licensing and collection of the licensing fees.
 
Two different things.... don't get them confused.
2013/10/25 07:55:52
Jeff Evans
I think the sample has to be recognisable. If it's not and you cannot associate what you hearing to something that may have contributed to that sound then it becomes your sound because you have created it. And what you play from then on will also have no resemblance to the original sound.
 
You could take a sharp attack with a horn blast or some very short sound. Transpose it down a few tones, put it into a granular synth and reconstruct the sound particles a bit, tune it down an octave, loop it, reverse part of it and double the sound, pan left and right and detune then go in create a new ADSR shape. What you have then is something that has no bearing on the original sound. It could be argued it is your sound now.
 
The way the use of samples has been discussed here is only one approach. Sure you can do interesting things with them. But cut them right down and rebuild a sound and create something completely new out of it is open to being a very viable way to adding to your sound design technique. There is no copyright infringement here as far as I can see. How is it ever going to be linked back to its original source.
 
You don't have to disguise things so much either. I recorded a group of world musicians playing, certain things at certain tempos. If I wanted to use that music as it is as performed and add to it I would need to get the go ahead from those players and that is fair enough. I made the recording and own the recording copyright. A lot has changed since then (1995) I could re arrange every bar now and create music that was never played at the time, percussive rhythmical grooves that had no relationship to the original performance, now at any tempo and pitched to different key to what was originally recorded. Who owns that material now and has the right to overdub other parts to it and release it. I have a pretty good feeling it is me.
 
What about taking an original performance and creating a sample CD full of one shot sounds only. Totally new and unrelated performances can now be created using the sampler with these one shot sounds loaded. You are creating an instrument now with its preset.
 
What about this concept. A flute player is playing a lovely melodic lines on a deep wooden flute, phrases and a total musical performance. But every now and then lands on a note and just sustains that note. How about I sample only the long notes, perfectly loop them in the right parts to turn that into infinite sustain. These notes end up inside my Emulator say or Kurzweil and of course I can fill in all the other notes around the ones I recorded. I now have the perfect Emulator or Kurz patch that plays perfectly and chromatically over two or three octaves. Is this my sound now? I say yes it surely is because the music that I will play with it will never resemble the music from which the long notes came.
 
With the world musicians I recorded they all agreed at the time that anything recorded during these sessions would be basically mine to use as I saw fit. I have enough material there to say create 7 or 8 CD's of just one shot samples alone. But I did say that if I used any of the material as it was intact in terms of how the others played it, any income I made form that track would be split 50 / 50 between myself and the other players. There were many sections where the playing was incredible and does not need to be changed at all, just overdubbed with additional material. My material makes the music twice as interesting so that is the reason for the 50/50 split.
 
I am into the microscopic use of sound and samples from anything at all. Designing it in such a way that the original sound ends up creating something totally different. Does it matter then what the original sound actually was. If a lot of creativity goes into creating the final sound then the creator deserves the recognition for doing it.
2013/10/25 10:24:59
wizard71
I wonder at what point the law would deem it recognisable or not. Changes for each one I guess. Complicated business.
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