To be clear, it is illegal to use someone else's work in and as your own.  You could take one sample - a literal .0001 second sample you didn't record and it would be illegal.  If anyone else cared and they could prove it.
 
As a practical matter, not bloody likely.  The copyright owner would have to "hear" your work and recognize their contribution and prove it in a court of law.  Of course, there is the rub.  James brown's estate likely has more money than you and a lawyer that is familiar w/ the process.  If you made money off his work they would get all that you made and more.  See The Verve V Rolling Stones.
 
If you are doing music professionally, it ain't worth it.  As bit sez, find a library which like government work is close enough.  Or do it yourself.  Or if you have lots of money get one of the services that will replicate a Ringo snare hit by renting abbey road studios (the same room) and find the snare and head and kind of stick used on the session and do a "hit" for you.  SOS had a lengthy article about that.
 
Practically, if you just want to muck around and take a james brown "ugh" and muck it up and layer w/ a hippo fart and lion roar and use it on a self-produced CD that you hand out to family on Christmas you aren't likely to suffer any repercussions.  Nobody will hear it, and if they do won't know where you got it.  And even if they did, they would demand you destroy any remaining copies and give them the "master tape".
 
Two real examples.  Todd Haynes, the film maker, did an early film using a Barbie doll in Superstar, the Karen Carpenter Story.  You won't find a copy, (tho it is on youtube) not because the Carpenter family objected (she was a public figure, after all), but Mattel objected to the use of copyrighted Barbie.  It was a crude, underground film that caught on by an experimental artist right out of college.  Of course, the PR was great and Todd went on to do Hollywood (he's a talented guy, which never hurts, even in Hollywood).  The other was at the same time in NYC (80's).  I did sound for him in the after hours clubs he promoted.  One of his other ventures was selling baseball caps when wearing them backwards became a "thing" (before then the only person to wear them so was Goober from Andy Griffith).  He had some with "Coco and/or "Chanel" made and sold them to downtown shops.  Of course, NYC was a fashion central and the hats got play in the fashion/lifestyle rags as well as the streets and cool people parties.  He sold about a 1000.  All that happened was he got a cease and desist letter from Coco's lawyers.
 
Draw your own conclusions.
 
@

Jeff Evans
I think the sample has to be recognisable. If it's not and you cannot associate what you hearing to something that may have contributed to that sound then it becomes your sound because you have created it. And what you play from then on will also have no resemblance to the original sound.

 
Yes I totally agree. Its not very artistic just to sample 5s of a riff and go THATS MINE !!! The point is for me (and you by the sounds of it) to create something new out of something old.Musically everything sounds like something,thats for sure. Theres not a single melody thats been written that doesnt sound like something else.If there was a melody that was unique,within a short time every would be trying to duplicate it !! lol. I think sampling gives the music another edge,a new story to tell.  
 

Jeff Evans
You could take a sharp attack with a horn blast or some very short sound. Transpose it down a few tones, put it into a granular synth and reconstruct the sound particles a bit, tune it down an octave, loop it, reverse part of it and double the sound, pan left and right and detune then go in create a new ADSR shape. What you have then is something that has no bearing on the original sound. It could be argued it is your sound now.
 

 
Sounds like fun :) The possibilities really are endless and definitely if you taking a sound through this kind of sculpting it wont bear any resemblance to the original. Its your sound now,with your stamp on it.
 

Jeff Evans
The way the use of samples has been discussed here is only one approach. Sure you can do interesting things with them. But cut them right down and rebuild a sound and create something completely new out of it is open to being a very viable way to adding to your sound design technique. There is no copyright infringement here as far as I can see. How is it ever going to be linked back to its original source.
 

 
Yep thats right. I think when people hear sampling,straight away they think you must be talking about phrases or loops.I had a chat once with an engineer (years ago) and he asked me if sampled.I said no,and he asked me did I use a reverb plugin in my music or did I own a reverb chamber lol. Sampling takes place on lots of levels ..the more you learn about it and do it,then definitely the more it can help you design and construct new sounds. As for the copyright,I dont know if theres a way for a sample to be linked back,I'm skeptical about that too.
 

Jeff Evans
You don't have to disguise things so much either. I recorded a group of world musicians playing, certain things at certain tempos. If I wanted to use that music as it is as performed and add to it I would need to get the go ahead from those players and that is fair enough. I made the recording and own the recording copyright. A lot has changed since then (1995) I could re arrange every bar now and create music that was never played at the time, percussive rhythmical grooves that had no relationship to the original performance, now at any tempo and pitched to different key to what was originally recorded. Who owns that material now and has the right to overdub other parts to it and release it. I have a pretty good feeling it is me.
 
What about taking an original performance and creating a sample CD full of one shot sounds only. Totally new and unrelated performances can now be created using the sampler with these one shot sounds loaded. You are creating an instrument now with its preset.

 
Yes I've been in touch with a big band recently and this is a project I want to do with them.I'd record hits,falls,riffs etc and then sample it galore :) Loads of fun,sounds very similar to you world music project.
 

Jeff Evans
What about this concept. A flute player is playing a lovely melodic lines on a deep wooden flute, phrases and a total musical performance. But every now and then lands on a note and just sustains that note. How about I sample only the long notes, perfectly loop them in the right parts to turn that into infinite sustain. These notes end up inside my Emulator say or Kurzweil and of course I can fill in all the other notes around the ones I recorded. I now have the perfect Emulator or Kurz patch that plays perfectly and chromatically over two or three octaves. Is this my sound now? I say yes it surely is because the music that I will play with it will never resemble the music from which the long notes came.

 
Beautiful :)
 

Jeff Evans
 
With the world musicians I recorded they all agreed at the time that anything recorded during these sessions would be basically mine to use as I saw fit. I have enough material there to say create 7 or 8 CD's of just one shot samples alone. But I did say that if I used any of the material as it was intact in terms of how the others played it, any income I made form that track would be split 50 / 50 between myself and the other players. There were many sections where the playing was incredible and does not need to be changed at all, just overdubbed with additional material. My material makes the music twice as interesting so that is the reason for the 50/50 split.
 

 
Sounds fair.
 

Jeff Evans
I am into the microscopic use of sound and samples from anything at all. Designing it in such a way that the original sound ends up creating something totally different. Does it matter then what the original sound actually was. If a lot of creativity goes into creating the final sound then the creator deserves the recognition for doing it.

 
We're on the same page :) Thanks for your input,I really enjoyed reading your post.
 
Kev
 

AT
To be clear, it is illegal to use someone else's work in and as your own.  You could take one sample - a literal .0001 second sample you didn't record and it would be illegal.  If anyone else cared and they could prove it.
 
As a practical matter, not bloody likely.  The copyright owner would have to "hear" your work and recognize their contribution and prove it in a court of law.  Of course, there is the rub.  James brown's estate likely has more money than you and a lawyer that is familiar w/ the process.  If you made money off his work they would get all that you made and more.  See The Verve V Rolling Stones.
 

 
LOL the Verve blatantly stole that riff yep. There was a coldplay song too which took not just a couple of notes,but a whole chunk of a melody from a  kraftwerk song. I dont have much time for this kind of practice.The sampling I'm talking about is more on the micro level (see Jeffs post he talks about it in some depth) - and using not copyrighted material but royalty free CDs. I defo wouldnt want to get stung the same way the Verve did :( I'd have to sell my gear and live in a shed if I did,lol.
 
 

AT
If you are doing music professionally, it ain't worth it.  As bit sez, find a library which like government work is close enough.  Or do it yourself.  Or if you have lots of money get one of the services that will replicate a Ringo snare hit by renting abbey road studios (the same room) and find the snare and head and kind of stick used on the session and do a "hit" for you.  SOS had a lengthy article about that.

 
Yep,I use these libraries now.Mainly Zero G. I'm considering recording a big band myself because there is absolutely nothing on the market which has convincing horns / brass. Sometimes there's no alternative really,then to get the mics out and record the real thing !My mate is doing a music degree and its poss we might be able to use their studio on site to record.Looking forward to it,I'm sure we'll learn lots this way.
 
 

AT
Practically, if you just want to muck around and take a james brown "ugh" and muck it up and layer w/ a hippo fart and lion roar and use it on a self-produced CD that you hand out to family on Christmas you aren't likely to suffer any repercussions.  Nobody will hear it, and if they do won't know where you got it.  And even if they did, they would demand you destroy any remaining copies and give them the "master tape".

 
Yep,sampling is not an issue if its not only heard by a few people.Not that my nan would appreciate a song with a James Brown ughy hippo fart on it though.I think there would be some repercussions LOL :)
  

AT
Two real examples.  Todd Haynes, the film maker, did an early film using a Barbie doll in Superstar, the Karen Carpenter Story.  You won't find a copy, (tho it is on youtube) not because the Carpenter family objected (she was a public figure, after all), but Mattel objected to the use of copyrighted Barbie.  It was a crude, underground film that caught on by an experimental artist right out of college.  Of course, the PR was great and Todd went on to do Hollywood (he's a talented guy, which never hurts, even in Hollywood).  The other was at the same time in NYC (80's).  I did sound for him in the after hours clubs he promoted.  One of his other ventures was selling baseball caps when wearing them backwards became a "thing" (before then the only person to wear them so was Goober from Andy Griffith).  He had some with "Coco and/or "Chanel" made and sold them to downtown shops.  Of course, NYC was a fashion central and the hats got play in the fashion/lifestyle rags as well as the streets and cool people parties.  He sold about a 1000.  All that happened was he got a cease and desist letter from Coco's lawyers.
 
Draw your own conclusions.
 
@

Cool story,sounds like a very clever guy.Fair play to him :)
 
Thanks for your input
 
Kev
 

I think that as Jeff pointed out in post #9 paragraph 2... I doubt the original creator of said sampled clip would be able to recognize their own work after all that....unless someone told them or leaked that fact to the media somehow.
 
so would it then be your own creation? It could be argued either way as Wizard pointed out in post #10.
 
The final decision would be made by a jury of your peers.

Thanks Kev it is all rather interesting. And as I was saying there are two or more forms of sampling. One where recognisable parts of things are attempted to being used and other approaches where those original things are no longer recognisable.
 
I don't completely agree with AT though. If I took a well known or very identifiable sound and mangled it into something else I would not hesitate in using it in any commercially viable production , a soundtrack or any situation where I was making money. Reason is that I am the only one on the planet that is going to know how any sound started off and how it ended up. I would never be caught out in this situation because the original sound source would never be known or identified.
 
But I sort of agree with Dave too in that if you were going to do something like that then there is no reason why you could not make the starting sound yourself and mangle it from there. I am not really one for using other people's sounds or samples in the long run anyway. I tend to make them myself. You don't need James Brown to make a grunt or shout, anyone can do that and then work on that sound. It is just as viable in the end.
 
For me the tricky bit is more like the world music musicians I mentioned and starting with one thing but altering it to form another. Different grooves, tempos, keys etc. Is that acceptable? Or can we take a multitrack session of a band say and use it to create one shots and small phrases to form the basis of sampler presets. And what if you cannot ask the musicians involved in the original recording. (I have still got every multitrack reel to reel from 1983 to when I stopped using tape, good resources wouldn't you say?) What do you do then? What if it was done in such a way that none of the original played music was recognisable. These are tricky questions. Most are going to say I cannot use it but I tend to disagree. Others have pushed the boundaries (and got away with it) way more than this proposal I am suggesting for using those reel to reel multis.

Jeff, from a legal point , AT is 100% correct.  Most of the hypotheticals  you pose are the legal equivalent of "if we disguise our crime and get away with it, is it still illegal".  I suppose nothing is illegal if you don't get caught.  We know that many people mangle the hell out of samples and get away with it all the time.  There are whole genres of music based on just that. Obviously, nobody is going to go after someone for a crime that nobody is aware is being committed.  If you want to take a james brown grunt, put it through a granular synth and then slap wobble bass style LFO's on it until james himself would not know it was him, I doubt you will get sued, but I doubt the success of such a hit , if it became a hit would be due to the public's love for James Brown.  I think AT's point was that if it is discovered you used a sample , it still must be cleared.   One approach some producers I have encountered take when they sample something where it seems impossible to track down the copyright owner is they create an interest bearing account  with what would be an average fee for sample clearence and documnt the attempts.  Odds are you will just add to your savings but it's a safer way to go.
 
 

Thanks dubdisciple I think the idea of setting up an account is an interesting one. I mean in terms of sampling all those multis I have there is just going to be no way of ever getting a hold of those people. Some maybe but many not.
 
I can see where you and AT are coming from in terms of using very recognisable sample or snippets of sound but in reality I don't do it anyway. Of course if I had to I would be chasing them down anyway.
 
I had to write production library music for EMI here in Australia featuring Aboriginal vocals and contemporary music. (mid 90's) I found an amazing LP of Aboriginal singing, mainly in large groups but there were lots of solo areas. I sampled all the solo lines and used them in the production library music. But you have to clear samples for EMI before you can use them in production music though.
 
I tracked down the person who recorded it all in the 50's. Her name was Alice Moyle and she lived in Canberra where I was at the time.
 
http://www.aiatsis.gov.au...bitions/alice/bio.html
 
There is a lot of Aboriginal heritage stuff in Canberra and nowhere else.  She was 85 when I met her (deceased now) and I played her the tracks and she loved them. She granted permission because she said they were all dead now and they were singing about food and fruit in the area. I am lucky because using Aboriginal vocal lines is one of the hardest things you can get your hands on and use. Especially now because they are very very protective of such things. But I have a whole library of them and they are all mine to use which is amazing. (haven't used them since though)
 
 

Thanks for posting that link.   would love to hear a track you used these sounds on.
 
I tend to err on the side of over-caution when it comes to copyright issues.  The courts have changed dramatically over the years in regards to copyright and not just against rap producers but various forms of media.  Becoming a software dominated world has set precedences that make just about everything physical or abstract protected property.  If you look at old documentaries in places like NYC they generally just showed everything without needing permission.  Now everyone is afraid of showing logos that are caught even incidentally or music that just happens to be in the background.  I warn my son all the time that he should rely on sampling as little as possible, even for the tracks he creates for fun since one never knows when that for fun project might get used for something beyond original intent.
 
I also was responsible for teaching copyright information to newbies at a tv station once and still have that zero tolerance or we can get the crap sued out of us mentality when advising others.  With that said, there are several high profile acts that seem to be getting away with sampling whoever.  Burial, a big star in the UK but mostly unknown in the US has sampled artists as high profile as Beyonce.  Underground music artists tend to get away with a lot .  EDM is full of uncleared samples.  Some are mangled beyond recognition (you would never know in a million years that it is a Beyonce sample on "untrue" odds of getting caught get reduced.") or so underground that