One thing I've never understood -- as in literally, I don't understand the underlying technology well enough -- is why Cakewalk instruments (Dimension Pro, Rapture, and now Z3TA+ 2 as well) cannot be automated in Ableton Live. Could someone explain why, why not, and/or what I might be missing?

In literally every other VSTi I have, which consists mostly of Native Instruments products and the Sylenth analog modeler, all I have to do is move a control (knob, slider, etc.) in the VST's UI (user interface), and it instantly appears as an automatable parameter in the Ableton UI, where it can be manipulated easily over the timeline in arrangement view or within a MIDI clip in the corresponding track.

Cakewalk instruments? I can move controls in the VST's UI all day long, and nothing shows-up as an automatable parameter. 

The worst part of this is that I love the sounds in all three of these flagship synths, and I do use them in some projects. But I'd use them a hell of a lot more if their sounds could be shaped over time with automation in Ableton, and it's hugely disappointing.

I just wish I understood:  1. If I'm missing some magic ingredient here.  2. If not, what it is about the VST interfaces as Cakewalk implements them vs. other people implement them that makes virtually everything else I have automatable, but not these?

Thanks for any and all comments. (And no, I'm not a Cakewalk hater; on the contrary. I just don't happen to use SONAR these days.)

Hmm....

I'm not sure what's going on here.  I can automate Dimension Pro, Rapture, and z3ta+ fine in Live 8. 

Maybe as a work around you can use the MIDI learn features of all of these synths?  Just right click the parameter you want to automate, then click MIDI Learn, then move a knob on your MIDI Controller or send a CC via MIDI clip and away you go. 

Chad, thanks for the reply, but clearly one of us is doing something different if you can automate it "just fine." Could you elaborate?

The usual procedure as I understand it, and as it works in both certain Native Instruments VST instruments, and with Sylenth, is as follows:

1. Drag the VST to a new track in arrangement view. The VST's interface will appear.

2. Move any automatable control in the VST's UI... A knob, a slider, whatever.

3. Immediately, in that Ableton track, the Fades/Device Chooser changes to the VST instrument in question, and the Automation Control Chooser drop-down menu updates to include the control you just moved. If you move the control up and down, the red automation curve/line moves up and down with it, visibly, in Ableton's UI.

If I attempt to do that with ANY Cakewalk VST, it doesn't do what I just outlined. The device does NOT auto-select in the Device Chooser, and the parameter does NOT appear in the Automation Control Chooser menu.

I'm not sure how MIDI learn is an adequate workaround because I'm not talking about playing the instrument with a MIDI keyboard (or altering its sound via MIDI), I'm talking about automating its parameters programmatically in the Ableton UI. I've not tried it, so I don't know, but having to use MIDI learn to "connect" each parameter is pretty bogus when for other VST instruments (other than Cakewalk's), the steps I outlined above work perfectly and it's entirely automatic.

Let me know what you're doing differently that you are able to automate them without any trouble. Obviously I'm not doing it the same way.

Many thanks.

Hey abryant,

I see what you are saying now.  The parameter doesn't automatically show up in Live's arrange track view.  I've always used automation in live the 'old school' route.  Well actually Live used to only detect the first 128 parameters reported by a VST and it would only offer automation on those.  Now it has a little config utility that allows you to specify which params you want to automate (most cases are modern VSTs have A_LOT_MORE then 128 params).  It's still always felt clunky either way when comparing to SONAR or other VST hosts.

Here is what I do to automate a parameter on Rapture inside of Live:

Insert Rapture:


expand the device within your track:


Click Config:


Then move the parameters you want to automate:



You can assign a bunch at once if you want:




Hope that works for ya.

- Chad

Chad,

Ahhhhhh... OK, you're the man!   And thanks for the illustrated explanation. Way helpful.

I think this is a case of a user (that'd be me) learning one way to do it, and then shutting-out any alternatives. I'd say it might also be an RTFM moment, but I don't even recall seeing that in the Ableton manual and I did read it (although I'm sure it's there someplace).

One of the things I do like about Ableton is that there are multiple routes to just about everything. Now I know route #2 to this.

Thankfully, it's usually only just one or two parameters I'm interested in, so the 128 limit is not a problem.

I still wish it worked "automagically" like it did in other VST instruments, and I'm still curious why it doesn't, but at least I can get the danged working at all now, which is a plus. I might actually get some use out of Rapture and Z3TA for a change!

All the best and thanks again.

Had to join the forum to simply thank you Chad. This was perfect!

JTMusic


Had to join the forum to simply thank you Chad. This was perfect!

Awesome!  Maybe I should put this up as a resource or tutorial somewhere on PatchArena...  Thanks and hope you enjoy Rapture! 


- Chad