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  • Percentage of budget dedicated to music production in cartoon tv series? (p.2)
2017/11/08 15:47:12
scook
ProjectM is still active on the forum
2017/11/08 20:42:02
craigb
Bing!  Yep, that's who I was thinking of.  Thanks Scook.
2017/11/08 21:08:46
ProjectM
I don't really do music for cartoons. I work with international dialogue - because I like to eat ;) 
 
I have placed a few tracks in movies, cartoons and commercials but it's usually been a one time buy off plus royalties, which is ok. But doing the music score, now that is another story. And from what I hear on the street: Don't expect a dime if you are new. Anything more than that is a bonus. And you will probably get a better pay day if you do the audio mixing and leave the composing to someone else. 
 
From what I've heard, though, it is usually a very small percentage, like 1-2% on a good day in the indie scene. The commercial scene will hire you for a salary for a period of time so who knows how the budgets are there. But of a $2 million project, 2% is quite a lot, however, you don't want to work on it full time for a year for that money. It probably will have to cover the cost of other musicians, orchestras, studio, stem mixes etc. But I don't know what the standard is, if there indeed is one. I know they like to get the music for free. Usually they have the composers on really tight deadlines towards the end to reduce cost. If they have you do it all over six weeks for example, they can justify a lower percentage than if they give you a comfortable 12 weeks to work on it. 
 
If you are doing a musical, the budget needs to be a lot higher. But producers usually know that and will factor that in. But then you are doing a whole lot more than just providing a musical bed for the dialogue to sit atop of and that should also reflect what you are left with after the project is done. 
 
What I do know is hold on to your royalty rights if possible, at least if it gets released on CD/downloads or whatever. Just in case. 
 
And however you price it, just be damn sure you can pay for your own cost of living while working on the project. I know more than one music producer who either exhausted themselves doing extra work next to a project, or ended up with huge debts just to pull through. 
 
You should check out http://www.filmmusicmag.com for some good insight and perhaps you can get in touch with someone over there. If you break into this scene and survive, then you are in for a helluva good time. 
 
I wish I had a more concrete answer, but AFAIK where you are, what your experience is and how things are done really factors in, not only on what they want to pay you, but also for how much you can demand.
2017/11/08 21:46:47
paulo
craigb






 
Looks like you're not quite as good at that as you've led us to believe.
2017/11/09 03:21:32
craigb
It was still a win though. 
 
(Just read the reply above it.)
2017/11/10 15:50:33
Moshkito
jamesg1213
I did a quick search but couldn't find anything. Found this though, which might be of interest;
 
https://www.soundonsound....ques/cartoon-composing




That's pretty cool and detailed and something that you get a bit of history of in the Cartoon Music Book ... and how it was done. Remember there was no computer stuff in the 50's and 60's and they had to develop their own timing, which made the Warner Bros, and other cartoons very difficult to make with music, and yet, when you see them as they are, they are a wonder ... that it got done, and I (probably) would recommend a serious study of how these were done, which should help with the imagination and timing of doing this with a computer, which will be easier ... and faster ... but not necessarily better, since your imagination is now tied to something that is not going to change, more than likely, though Chuck Jones has many moments and examples of changes made because Carl did this, or someone did that ... and the book goes quite far and even including things like Snoopy and his pals.
 
It's an art form, that can be used in regular film, however, today, it's being used to simply add sound bits and pieces that change/distort an effect, so the film sounds better, or weird, and makes an audience think it is cool, because it is so different.
 
My only suggestion, might be ... find a couple of cartoonists, and talk to them about music and adding to the cartoon, not just music, but effects as well, because they are not separate in a cartoon, as they tend to be in a film.
 
Film schools, are full of folks that do cartoons, and try their had at some very weird and far out things ... and as an example, every year the Portland International Film Festival has a kids side, which is full of cartoons and just plain ... out there and far out stuff, and you could almost say that these are all beginner film makers, and their creativity is endless. Some of the most far out things are actually in these things, a lot more than many of the films in the Festival, btw.
 
One last suggestion ... get the 2 CD's by Carl Stallings and listen to them ... remember that you do not have the visual for a cartoon when listening, and it will drive you crazy ... that all that got cut to within 5 minutes of a visual something or other ... and if you can end up having a little fun and be crazy with stuff like that, I guarantee you that doing a cartoon for you will be a breeze ... and you will help make the cartoon even more important, and better.
 
That's as much as I can tell you, and hope this helps ... I might not be the best suggestion, but music for any of the visual mediums, has been my life ... all of my life ... and cartoons is one of the first things that woke me up to it ... FANTASIA of all films, but I already had "visuals" to classical music in my head by then, so seeing this idea was awesome ... and later the other cartoons ... yeah ... makes film music, for the most part ... just be total and complete crap that has nothing to do with the story and situation itself ... at least in the cartoons, the concepts were MATCHED a lot more ... and better!
 
A really good example of the mixing of music and film, check out the old Blade Runner, which had sequences that were choreographed to the music and then the new version that has none of that and is instead full of sound bites and bits that make it look like it's part of the soundtrack and it does not choreograph anything except some idea that this film has to be a bigger and better action/adventure film than the others out there ... at least a lot more cool than they were, kind of thing. In my book, the whole thing was just horrible, and insensitive to the very thing that made the first film so special. It wasn't just the story and its parts ... the music added something to it that otherwise might not have been there. You could not say anything that close to the new film.
 
A cartoon, needs that strong cohesion, to make it better and stronger ... and this was the secret behind many of the Disney and Warner Brothers cartoons for many years. 
 
It's a forgotten thing these days, and not appreciated as deeply and valuable as it became in helping film be more detailed and intense, and this was something that folks like Stanley Kubrick drew on in his early days, however subtle it might have been ... it was a small thing that got your attention, and many other film makers took advantage of it (Ken Russell and Werner Herzog and others), to create something that was way out there and strange, as well.
 
2017/11/10 19:01:28
bapu
"My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about what's inside!" ~MoshpitPedo
 
What's inside cannot come out and be exposed if not for the computer or monitor or letters (or pencil/pen/papyrus)!
2017/11/12 20:36:52
Moshkito
bapu
"My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about what's inside!" ~MoshpitPedo
 
What's inside cannot come out and be exposed if not for the computer or monitor or letters (or pencil/pen/papyrus)!




Incorrect my friend. It just depends if I wish to share it or not. The computer did not create the poem ... or the song you want to do ... it just helped facilitate your "translation" into being seen and heard. Same with me. 
 
Just as you were, I was writing poems, way before I even had a computer ... a pen was good enough, just like a guitar was good enough for you ... the medium is not always the message! And it should never (really) be.
 
I'm wanting to reword that a wee bit, btw to clarify it better!
2017/11/12 20:59:35
Jeff Evans
It is a very difficult thing to quantify.  It is also not your concern either how much of the budget is for music.  You either agree to do it for what they are offering or not.  I have worked on documentaries that might have had a $1M budget for example but the music might have only attracted say a $5000 budget. (0.5%) It is not fixed percentage at all of a total budget.  It is what they decide to invest in it and it is always near the end as well when most of the budget has already been spent.
 
The music often commands the least amount of money and the thing is that it is still super important and they want it to be amazing and make the whole production look and sound better but the money that is spent on it is in nowhere near proportional to the expectation.
 
It is still great to do and I have survived for many years doing just docos and jingle and some cartoon soundtracks. But you have to live with a few things such as some budgets not being great but then others can be much better too.  Also the time frame is usually pretty tight too and you have to work to time deadlines.  It can put you, your studio and your DAW under pressure.
 
 
2017/11/12 21:08:43
Linear Phase
Probably a lot less than you think.  Its so inexpensive to do sound now.  I imagine the $100 million dollar+ Hollywood blockbuster movie still has a sound budget above $2 - $3 million dollars.  Tv shows, cartoons, video games?  No way, not anywhere near...
 
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