dear all,
 
I hope this is the right forum for this little (stupid) question:
 
let's say we have a little mix ready, I usually leave 2 db headroom. How far can you push the ozone limiter? I have somewhere read or heard that an average gain reduction of 6 db is okay, but what is your opinion?
 
I know, most of you say: trust your ears. But you know what: I rather trust YOU guys!

every mix is unique, so there are really no set parameters...
 
the 'listen with your ears' thing, seems like a cop out, but it really is the bottom line.
 
you HAVE to train yourself to recognize the differences, and be able to make decisions based on what you really hear.
 
i would suggest.
 
doing 3 completely different passes, 3 different copies of the same file, and experiment.
 
take notes, try a very middle of the road approach, a very conservative approach, and a radical approach.
 
then live with it for a while, and let the decision come to you naturally.
 
 
 
the guys that do this professionally, probably have 10,000 hours of mixing experiment time, you can't learn it in a short time.
 

yup.... learn to trust your ears, after you know what you're listening for.
 
Less is more..... generally speaking...

As with all good mastering technique there is a lot you can do to the track before it actually reaches the limter.
 
1  Put the prematsered track into some sort of editor and limit peaks that are too high unnecessarily. Then you raise the overall rms level of the track up somewhat even before mastering starts.
 
2 EQ/Compression.  You can sometimes squeeze a dB or two after the EQ stages and the same applies to the compressor which usually comes next. If your compressor is doing GR's of say 2 to 3 dB then you usually add that amount of makeup gain quite safely to the output.
 
3 By the time you get to your limiter if you are organised you may only need 4 or 5 dB of rms level (max) increase to reach a very loud master.
 
Trying to get the limiter to do it all is a big mistake. Loudness comes from various stages/processes not just one.
 
As with any limiter the idea is you do some tests and push it harder and harder and watch the GR and listen for when the mix starts to break up and it will. Even with a fantastic limiter like PSP Xenon you can get the mix to break up, but I know that when it is only showing GR's of 4 to 5 dB the mix is still very much intact and still sounds great. I just make sure I am well within that range and all is usually very well.

It really does depend on the genre and song. The good news is that Ozone's limiter can be pushed quite hard before it starts sounding ugly, so at least you don't have to worry about that aspect. 
 
How much gain reduction you see depends not only on the threshold but also on the dynamic range of the material before it even hits the limiter. If you've got large spikes (e.g. a loud kick drum) happening, then you might see 6-8dB reductions but still not be over-compressing at all. OTOH, if your song is already at a fairly consistent level, 1-3dB might be a more appropriate amount and 6-8dB might be squashing the life out of it. And it's entirely legal to have a song that shows no gain reduction at all!
 
Also, if your overall volume is already high, then the limiter may be engaged all the time and showing large gain reductions. Make sure the average level going into the limiter is reasonable, e.g. -6dB or less. You usually want the limiter to tame peaks, not be a general volume control.
 
So rather than focusing on the amount of reduction, look at the average RMS instead. This will give you a better indication of whether you're pushing the limiter too far or not enough. Then go back and see what kind of gain reduction Ozone is showing when you've achieve the desired RMS target.
 
Everybody's material is different, each genre is different, so anybody that says "shoot for -NdB" is speaking from their own personal experience that may or may not be relevant to you. That's why nobody's actually answering your question directly by supplying hard numbers like "-6dB is OK". We're not dodging the question, just saying that "it depends".
 

gentlemen,
 
thanks a lot for all your answers and the time you have spent to write them! as usual, this forum is a full of cool people with a lot of knowledge, and are not afraid to share it.
 
I will take all this into consideration with my next master. I am making music for decades, but am relatively new to the world of recording - and what seemed to be easy in the beginning turned out to be a huge, sometimes confusing world! 

yes, it is.
 
heheh
 
and it makes one appreciate the pros, just that much more

I have a book called desktop mastering. Through out his mastering chain he gets most of his gain from his compressor therefore you dont have to hammer the limiter very hard.

The loudness or rms value of a final mix can and usually needs to be made louder at some point. (mastering)
 
K system is good because you are starting with a ref value already set. eg K-14.The VU metering is also handy because it can show you levels at any point in your signal flow. It is also good because there is built in headroom for all the following processes to take place.
 
You do some tests and measure the rms component of a vey loud master or one that you are trying to attain. Getting levels up to K-7 averaging is a pretty decent loudness level.  7 dB of gain is required then. If you are heading towards K -7 then at some point you need to recalibrate your K ref level so the VU will be showing you the right thing. The mix is now falling well short of the 0dB VU mark
 
Running this mix into a limiter and even one as good as Xenon and trying to add that 7 db at that point will work but the limiter can easily sound strained, slightly distorted etc. Not great.
 
The gain is built in over several stages. Ist stage is in an editor where silly peaks can be limited to the same level as most of the track. A good 1 to 3 db can be added at this point. I only take it up 1 to 2 dB max. ie I add 1.5 dB to the whole track and it ends up peak wise where it was hitting occasionally before but now the track is louder rms wise. (Someone on another thread has got a track that is only hitting -18db. This is the point I would fix that and add al least enough gain to bring everything up to the K -14 ref level. You should also not end up with a track so quiet either. Something went wrong in his recording process. Because I use the K system my pre mastered tracks always reach that K ref level. See why it is so good to use!)
 
If you use cut EQ in the mastering stage EQ then the track will also loose level so you can often maintain that and even add 1 dB out of the EQ. Using a lower ratio in the mastering compressors and driving harder with the amount of GR means you can add another 2 to 3 dB in the makeup control. Now the track is 3 to 4 dB louder than when it started and just before the limiter. I then get the limiter to only work as hard as 3 dB of GR.
 
Now the track has reached an average of K-7 and is seriously loud. Limiter working very easy now and introduces no distortion at this point. All still sounding clean.
 
No presets inside Ozone can get you this level of control and finesse. You have to manually set all these things yourself and this is what makes a good mastering engineer. Someone who can do all of those things very well.

speedtom
I am making music for decades, but am relatively new to the world of recording - and what seemed to be easy in the beginning turned out to be a huge, sometimes confusing world! 

This is a very insightful observation, Tom. Whether you know it or not, you've already achieved at least one major milestone: the realization that it looks easier than it really is.