Beepster
How many people in the US supported the various wars in the middle east over the past nearly 20 years?
 
I mean... you do realize you're at war, right?

 
If you'd ask them though, you'd find that they don't support the idea of military attacks which deliberately target civilians, and they support the billions of dollars worth of technical R&D that has gone into developing weapons which find their targets with pinpoint accuracy thus minimizing civilian casualties.I don't think you'd find any significant support for the military targeting civilians in any form.  

sharke

Beepster
How many people in the US supported the various wars in the middle east over the past nearly 20 years?
 
I mean... you do realize you're at war, right?

 
If you'd ask them though, you'd find that they don't support the idea of military attacks which deliberately target civilians, and they support the billions of dollars worth of technical R&D that has gone into developing weapons which find their targets with pinpoint accuracy thus minimizing civilian casualties.I don't think you'd find any significant support for the military targeting civilians in any form.  

Are you sure about that? Because I've definitely heard/seen the term "glass parking lot" bandied about quite a LOT. Even here on this forum.
 
My point is, and I say this with much luv and respect for ya (seriously... I've always liked you except when this topic comes up), you cannot blame this type of behavior on Islam or Muslims in general. Douchecanoes like this guy are following a twisted/radical variant of the religion and are being manipulated by self serving, power hungry jagwagons.
 
Just like I don't equate all Christians with the dumbasses who blow up abortion clinics or all white dudes with that jerkoff who plowed into the crowd in Charlottesville. Hell, as much as I despise racists/racism I wouldn't even paint them all with the same brush as that guy because the majority of them likely aren't down with just outright murdering people.
 
So yeah... you want to hate on the extremists? I'm right there with ya. Trying to paint all Muslims (most of whom are very peaceful, hardworking and just want what everyone else wants. A decent life for themselves and those they care about) with the same brush isn't cool or correct.
 
However all I really want is for us to not have this type of convo start seeping into this particular forum. I have a whole slew of socio-political stances/opinions that I just KNOW would likely cause a whole poopstorm up in here so I generally just keep it to myself... up to a point.
 
Anyhoo... I doubt I can change anyone's mind on this stuff but can we just rage out on the murderers and leave the generalizations out of it?
 
Knowwadimean, jelly bean?
 
Cheers.

I'm not generalizing though Beepster. I can understand if I was saying "all Muslims are extremists," but I'm not. I'm pointing out statistical facts, not generalizing. Personally I'm hugely against religion of any kind - I think it's the biggest source of evil and cruelty and ignorance and death in this world. However, let's not kid ourselves that all religions are the same, or that they inspire extremism at anywhere near the same rate. 
 
The fact is that there is (fact) a very worrying degree of support for terrorism in the name of Islam, and this degree of support is absolutely contributing toward the spread of it. If all religions were the same, then I'd expect each one to inspire a similar degree of extremism & violence, but that's not the case. And then of course there's the argument that it's not the religion, that Islamic terrorists have very justified political beefs with how they've been treated which would in some way explain why terrorism is so prolific in the Islamic world. Well if that's the case, then let's take the example of Native Americans. They have a HUGE beef with America - they had their land stolen from them, they were decimated by violence and disease, all at the hands of the country they live peacefully in today. Yet they're not blowing themselves up on buses, they're not lobbing rockets out of their settlements into towns and cities, and they don't express their life goals as being to bring the world to its knees and to kill anyone who isn't on board with their idea of spirituality. That's because Native American culture and spirituality is inherently peaceful and does not inspire such attitudes. 
 
My point is that there is something about this religion and the culture surrounding it which is responsible for it being the inspiration behind most of the world's terrorist attacks. I'd have to twist myself into pretzels of evasion and delusion not to observe that. 
 
 
 
 

sharke
Personally I'm hugely against religion of any kind - I think it's the biggest source of evil and cruelty and ignorance and death in this world. 

I would add politics to this statement (which is why both are against the TOS - heh).
 
I would also point out that I keep spirituality and religion (a man-made entity for the control and power over the masses) separate.  Same with politics and community leadership/support.  One's hidden goal is power and control over the masses, the other supports them.
 
(IBTL?)

craigb

sharke
Personally I'm hugely against religion of any kind - I think it's the biggest source of evil and cruelty and ignorance and death in this world. 

I would add politics to this statement (which is why both are against the TOS - heh).
 
I would also point out that I keep spirituality and religion (a man-made entity for the control and power over the masses) separate.  Same with politics and community leadership/support.  One's hidden goal is power and control over the masses, the other supports them.
 
(IBTL?)

I guess that's why I'm a libertarian atheist. 

Okay, well I could certainly refute quite a bit of that and provide multiple examples to back it up but really I doubt it would make a difference and as I said I try to avoid ramming my politics/beleifs down peoples throats (at least around here) but really...
 
What's your end game then? Do we abolish Islam? Do we round up all Muslims and put them in camps? Do we continue buggering around in their homelands for not so noble reasons? What?
 
And I'm sorry, you say you aren't generalizing then you go and do a whole bunch of generalizing.
 
Also it should be noted that the first part of the Q'ran is really quite peaceful and lovey dovey. Once ole Muhammed got booted out of Mecca for buggering up the status quo is when he started spewing all that Jihad crap which is what these lunatics use as their excuse to murder... because people were quite literal trying to kill him and all his followers so he wanted revenge. So a well meaning merchant who did some desert shrooms and started out wanting to help people, got kicked in the balls for it then kind of turned into an arsehole.
 
Don't get me wrong. I despise organized religion and most certainly hate violence of any kind (I am literally violently opposed to violence) but I believe in full bodily, mental and spiritual autonomy for the individual.
 
Just as long as that individual does not invade on the autonomy of another individual... which of course violent acts are a massive violation of said autonomy.
 
THAT is the true spirit of libertarianism. Not this weird twisted faux libertarianism that seems to have sprouted up that somehow allows for the subjugation of others.
 
It's all or nothing. It can't just be liberty for ME but not that other dood over there because he's not like me.
 
Murderous arseholes however? Ya, got no love or sympathy for them which brings up another point.
 
Just because people like me think it is wrong to accuse all Muslims of being terrorists or terrorist sympathizers (because it's simply not true) does NOT mean we condone or accept these types of horrendous acts. There are a whle pile of Islamaphobes though that seem to think we do.
 
We don't. We probably hate this crap more than you do.
 
So have we sufficiently broken the TOS yet?
 
;-)

Once again Beepster:
 
Nobody here is calling all Muslims terrorists or all Muslims terrorist sympathizers. Straw man arguments are not cool m'kay....
 
However, there is no getting away from the fact that support for terror in the name of Allah is worryingly high in the world of Islam. Now, we can either have that fact in the open, or we can just ignore it and call everyone who brings it up an "Islamophobe." 
 
Also, please note that you don't see me calling for a ban on Islam, or "rounding up Muslims" or any kind of subjugation. 
 
I don't have the solution. But that does not mean I can't be open about expressing the problem.
 
My take on libertarianism and liberty is that liberty is for people who respect the liberty of others. Islamists who believe in a worldwide caliphate and/or believe that non-believers should be destroyed do not and will never respect the liberty of others. 

So why not say ISIS wannabe?
 
Or Al Quaeda derpclowns?
 
Yanno... like how we call the Klan what they are when they do something crappy or what we call neo Nazis when they do something crappy or eco terrorists when they do something crappy or when the IRA would do something crappy, or when bikers do something crappy, etc.
 
My whole bleeding point is just saying/implying "Muslims" or "Islam" is inaccurate. These are specific radical groups. Yes they are a major problem and need to be thwarted at every turn as much as possible.
 
Muslims in general are just people and I find it gross that they have to take on all the hate and blame for these jerks running around hurting people.
 

The REAL problem are CIA created "events" designed to divide and enrage while making them look like they are being performed by Islamic radicals.  Remember, UN Agenda 21 calls for ONE religion for all (among other horrifying things).
 
(Just to thicken the pot a bit.)

craigb
The REAL problem are CIA created "events" designed to divide and enrage while making them look like they are being performed by Islamic radicals.  Remember, UN Agenda 21 calls for ONE religion for all (among other horrifying things).
 
(Just to thicken the pot a bit.)

Well I won't go down any conspiracy rabbit holes but yeah, the CIA are kind of a really nefarious bunch of shiz disturbers and absolutely had a hand in stirring up this particular hornets nest... like for many many decades.
 
And yes... discord. Forever sowing discord.
 
Arses.