Jonbouy

 

 
I think it is a real shame when we get input from some highly respected DAW builders that are dealing with this kind of thing daily on various systems for many users and they share their knowledge with us, only to have some point scoring smart alec's trying to big themselves up by being disrespectful, ignorant and contrary for the sake of it.

 
 
I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Though it may or may not be true in some cases (so I don't totally disagree, lol). But I have a different opinion.
 
I don't think a DAW builders advice or word should just be followed blindly. I think they should be questioned sometimes. Though they are helpful and offer some definitive answers sometimes. So their opinion certainly carries a lot of weight.
 
 
But, I think an individuals use and needs have to be taken into account. And they often aren't with blanket statements and advice.
 
For example, (and this could have changed) I know the guy from Studio Cat recommends taking around an actual desktop to gigs. I read where he takes a desktop with a monitor in some sort of suitcase. That to me is just ridiculous. A laptop is way better for that purpose. Like by miles. Conveniently enough, he doesn't sell laptops (again that may have changed). So I got to wonder about that recommendation, for me personally. (BTW, I'm not implying any dishonesty, just saying he's out of touch with my needs on that one).
 
 
But if I question that am I disrespectful? No, I just have different individual needs.
 
 
And with the ADK guy, I see him all over the internet. He is very helpful, but often very rude and condescending. That makes enemies and its a poor way to conduct yourself in business. Just my opinion, and clearly he has lots of sales and supporters, so wth do I know. But for me, I wouldn't buy from him due to how he conducts himself. Professionalism goes a long way with me. And given the many options out there, I'd rather spend my $ on someone with a more professional and less hostile attitude (though really I'd just rather build it myself and save the $ for some other gear or software). Honestly, he comes off like a bully sometimes and that scares me off to wanting to deal with him. It also makes people disrespectful towards him.  Dish it ..better be ready to take it.  But again, just my opinion.
 
 
Also, I've noticed some of the parts recommendations DAW makers make are based on how well they interact with UAD cards or firewire devices. Or how well the companies that supply the parts handle returns. Or what they consider to be "professional" needs. All good things to consider, but not the end all be all. Someone else may be able to have a fantastic system not following any of their recommendations because they have different needs.
 
I often see responses like "just call studio cat" or "just call ADK". But I don’t often see more probing questions to determine if that could be overkill and needlessly expensive to someone. Its almost like a little fraternity that just keeps pushing people into buying stuff off their buddies. That’s how comes it off to me anyway. So I wonder about people that make those recommendations. Some jsut blatantly seem like they are getting kick backs of some kind.  The individuals particular way of working or needs are often not explored further.
 
 
Anyway, ( and I realize how touchy everyone gets here!) I don't mean any disrespect. Just saying there are other points of view and opinions.

Well said Mandrake and I also appreciate your clear vision and respectful delivery. And I'm convinced you're not the only one sharing the opinion you have just laid out. Thank you for taking the time to do so. 

"jm24"
If ALL drivers were properly coded, and we could disable all power reducing aspects of these drivers, using only HPET for timing would be prolly be the best choice.

I completely agree and have done so, with great results. And since I have other machines that I use for everyday non-audio related tasks, in my case this was possible.

@Mandrake
 
I totally agree with your entire post.
 
That is contributing to the debate, and I certainly don't follow anyone blindly.
 
However I was refering to what actually happened to this thread in particular and the trolling mostly from one reknowned and ill-informed individual that was insisting on advocating tweaks that have long since been shown to have no bearing other than to impair the performance of your machine.
 
Sure you can disable core parking but losing 12% of your performance by losing your stock turbo capability isn't really a recommendation for anybodies needs.  Turning off all that Core Parking, Speedstep, C-States stuff incurs a penalty in performances whatever you are doing because it will limit your chip to it's standard multiplier and disable turbo, the upside you get fewer willd DPC peaks.  With HPET off and the rest re-enabled you lose the spkes gain your performance back and run much cooler.  This is the case for anyone running an ASIO driver at low-latency on a current Windows box.
 
All anyone has to do is test to realise it is true.  On this issue, for anyone running a music application via an ASIO driver, Scott is so right it should be pinned as a handy hint rather than debated.
 
btw on the portability front if you are touring and your gigs depend on it, I'd recommend a rack-mounted desktop over a laptop too...  If you are just doing small gigs out of the car a laptop will be fine as you are normally in an intimate enough position with your audience to explain what went wrong...

"JonBouy"
However I was refering to what actually happened to this thread in particular and the trolling mostly from one reknowned and ill-informed individual that was insisting on advocating tweaks that have long since been shown to have no bearing other than to impair the performance of your machine.

Continuously repeating yourself with less than accurate comments (and I am being polite) doesn't make it so). But it does reveal the frailty of your position. Maybe you should use bigger sized fonts and upper-case characters to bully your point across? Better still, have a closer look at what's happening in this thread, according to your own words. 

"Jonbouy"

The art that is lacking here lately is to engage in the actual point not what you've judged the person making to it be like. That's just called prejudice.

Reference :: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2390556

Addition :: Quote at the top of this post.

Alegria

"jm24"

If ALL drivers were properly coded, and we could disable all power reducing aspects of these drivers, using only HPET for timing would be prolly be the best choice.

I completely agree and have done so, with great results. And since I have other machines that I use for everyday non-audio related tasks, in my case this was possible.

 
 
 
Is it possible to disable the power bits of all the drivers?
 
I have always wondered if setting the "screen saver," hard disk spin down, computer sleep/hibernate,... actually disables the timers or just the triggers.
 
What I infer from JB, JSC, and others' comments, is the power-adjusting timers are integral to the drivers, and therefore cannot be disabled. So the power related timers for the video card, usb, pcie,... repeatedly remind the OS to effect the selected trigger. The faster HPET clock decreases the interval of this action, and the reminding happens more often resulting in more spikes per period of time. Disabling HPET reduces the number of spikes by reducing the clock speed.
 
 
I assume the various clocks we are referring to do more than just provide reference to the many power related timers. If not, why cannot all the reference clocks be disabled? Prolly cuz the timers would complain.
 
If disabling the "screen saver,...." actually stops the timers then stopping the clock removes another active non-useful process.
 
 
(And: disabling the C states, and speed step, are no longer necessary with the newest chips.)
 
JB has found, for his hardware combination, that disabling ONLY HPET reduces the affects of all the power stuff with one-swell-foop. Yet does allow the machine to reduce power use when not used for audio.
 
Allegria has found, for his hardware combination, that changing all power options to disabled and using ONLY the HPET clock provides the best performance for a box "dedicated" to the specific use of audio production. 
 
-------------------
 
I have been supporting windows computers for a few dozen clients for about 20 years. For these clients I only disable sleep mode and then adjust hibernate as needed.
 
(Sleep mode is stupid to me. And have had way too many problems with it.)
 
Even after all these years, I have limited knowledge of what is actually happening at the machine level. My focus has been on the users' need to get work done without the computer interfering.
 
My interest is squeezing every bit of performance from the machine which is "dedicated" to noise recording. I have always stopped auto-updating stuff, and disabling the OS power stuff.
 
The new motherboard, Black Edition 4 core chip, and ram, has many options that yearn for attention. Hence my interest in the topic, and the comments, of this thread.
 
j
 
 
 
 

>>And with the ADK guy, I see him all over the internet. He is very helpful, but often very rude and condescending.
 
Being a curmudgeon does not correspond to a lack of knowledge. These guys definitely have more experience with more hardware configurations than anybody who does not do the same kind of work.
 
Do their products perform as described? Do they support the products the sell?  This is all that matters.
>> I often see responses like "just call studio cat" or "just call ADK".
 
This is the advice given as a recommendation to those who know little, and are likely to not really be interested in the machine, other than to record their noises.
 
I was very fortunate 20+ years ago to be directed to a great car repair shop. I no longer wanted to be responsible for fixing and maintaining my vehicles. These guys want to fix cars. And I want them to.
 
Same with computers for most people.
 
j

"jm24"
These guys definitely have more experience with more hardware configurations than anybody who does not do the same kind of work.

I never disputed that fact. And I would go so far as to say that I would not hesitate to follow Scott's or Jim's advice on the choice of a motherboard for example (as that is one of the most important factors along with the chipset in getting a solid head start on managing/lowering DPC latency). But the gist of this thread was my disagreement with Scott's blanket statement about HPET. I don't agree that it applies to everyone without exception (certainly not to me and others in a similar scenario).

"jm24"
This is the advice given as a recommendation to those who know little, and are likely to not really be interested in the machine, other than to record their noises.

And I also have recommended the same in the past. This is common sense. But the right question have to be asked to begin with..., such as:

"Alegria"
If we're going to get into specifics, I (we) need a bit more info such as:

1] What's your budget (an approximation will do)?
2] Is this budget flexible?
3] How silent do you want this machine to be?
4] What sample libraries are you using, if any... (eg. EWQL Hollywood series, Ominisphere, Trillian)?
5] Would you consider yourself a tweaker/geek or more of an artist that can't be bothered with such things?

Reference :: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2638398

You can also notice in that particular thread how it flows with good and pertinent information. Also, notice how Jim intervenes in a non-confrontational way to set things straight with the graphic card. This is the beauty of a peer-to-peer forum when not having to deal with chest pounding "I know it all" attitudes.

Yo Allegria

My comments were addressed to Mandrake's comments. Not to discount your response.

=======

Re: the OP:  I am still confused about the original topic:

"" JB:  Turning off all that Core Parking, Speedstep, C-States stuff incurs a penalty in performances whatever you are doing because it will limit your chip to it's standard multiplier and disable turbo "

This seems to be the main point of contention. Sorta:

JB:::
"""
Windows 7, Turbo enabled, HPET disabled test project running for 12 hours at 32 buffers. Maximum DPC latency spike overnight 438us.

Same test project, same test settings HPET enabled. Would not run at 32 buffers, minor crackling at 48 so run at 64 buffers. Maximum DPC spike 2,600 + us after 45 minutes. Retested 2308 us reported again after a few minutes, final try also ended in me not bothering further.
"""

In the 2nd test did you disable all power related BIOS and OS items? If not this is not a fair comparison.

But: your interest in using the power saving features is not without value.

-----------------

For grins: I enabled AMD cool and quiet on my main business computer. It went to sleep and would not awaken with a hard boot. This is a 3 year old motherboard. Prolly just tired.

.......

It would be way nice to have a reference test project we all could use, given the millions of hardware combinations and settings,  that could provide a clear reference point.

Too many variables.


-----------------

Laptop: Dedust the fan/heatsink regularly. Put a good cooler under it.

j

jm24


>>And with the ADK guy, I see him all over the internet. He is very helpful, but often very rude and condescending.
 
Being a curmudgeon does not correspond to a lack of knowledge. These guys definitely have more experience with more hardware configurations than anybody who does not do the same kind of work.
 
Do their products perform as described? Do they support the products the sell?  This is all that matters.
>> I often see responses like "just call studio cat" or "just call ADK".
 
This is the advice given as a recommendation to those who know little, and are likely to not really be interested in the machine, other than to record their noises.
 
I was very fortunate 20+ years ago to be directed to a great car repair shop. I no longer wanted to be responsible for fixing and maintaining my vehicles. These guys want to fix cars. And I want them to.
 
Same with computers for most people.
 
j

 
I disagree that all that matters is the product. To me at least. Just my opinion, as I've stated, but that ADK guy's attitude is a turn off to me, in terms of me even buying anything from him. Maybe attitude and professionalism doesn't matter to some. But to me it matters quite a bit. But, like I also said, I realize he is helpful and well respected by many. Still, many people on peer to peer forums are very helpful and they aren't selling anything. Not picking on the guy. Just my opinion, as I've said.
 
 
and oy vey with the car analogies! lol. Cars and computers are not the same thing at all. A car needs specialized, expensive tools, lots of knowledge (far more than putting together a computer), its dirty, and if you don't' know what your doing you can end up stranded or dead. Its also very expensive. Parts and labor. I just got quoted $600 to repair my a/c. I can build a latest greatest computer for a little more than that. So its not the same thing.
 
 
Besides, if someone asks a question on how to restring their guitar, is the best answer to say, "just got to guitar center"? Or if they want to record at home.."just go to a studio"? That's how I see a lot of those recommendations.
 
 
In my opinion, its more sensible to learn your instruments. And for better or worse, we are married to our computers ( I love mine). Sure there is a learning curve. There is learning curve to Sonar and playing any instrument. And that learning curve is much higher than putting together a computer. Still, I understand the desire to not f around with it and have someone else do it for you. I've had them done for me before too. But in the end, I felt like I should have done it myself and saved the cash.
 
 
Maybe some get some peace of mind by hiring someone to build a computer. But there are drawbacks too. Expense is one. But also, what happens if there is an issue and it needs repair? You have to pack it up (real well) and ship it off (hoping the UPS guy isn't kicking it around, lol). Wait for it to get there. Get repaired. Be sent back...at best this is a week you are out. Probably more if they have to wait for the parts or are bz. Plus the expense and risk of the shipping. Better to just go to frys or microcenter and do it yourself ASAP, IMHO.
 
 
But again, these are just some of the drawbacks that I see, for me personally. And why I don't always think its the best option to recommend. But sometimes it is. Especially if you've got the $ for it. I just don't think making the blind recomdation is always the best advice.
 
And Algeria already stated perfectly why.
 
 
Anyway, what's wrong with asking a little more probing questions first before just doing the "just call adk or studi cat" thing? Maybe it's the best option for someone. Or maybe its, like I said, over-kill and needlessly expensive for someone. I think to give good advice, you need to find out a little more about the individual's needs.
 
 
But again, lol, not trying to fight or be disrespectful. Just my opinion.