Which of course raises the question, for people using still-supported and/or -workable PCI cards, whether it is advantageous (or even necessary) to dump their PCI card and get a PCIe card. I mean, if one can still use one's PCI interface in a new mobo, and a new PCIe version won't offer much if any improvement, why go to the expense?

No one likes to make a "lateral" purchase... as it doesn't bring much new/exciting to the table.  
I say lateral... (assuming we're talking about top performing units in each category), because performance between Firewire, USB2, PCIe, and PCI is extremely close.  Unless you need to work at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size, it's effectively a moot point.

The issue with PCI audio interfaces isn't going away.
At some point (in the not too distant future), the unit will have to be replaced.
We've all been thru similar issues with gear.  Gear that worked perfectly fine was phased-out, superseded, discontinued, etc.

• We're currently seeing this with WinXP
• We've been thru it with the original PCI UAD-1 (prior to the announcement of the UAD-2)
• Logic on the PC

As technology moves on (and PC hardware moves fast), the lack of development/testing with PCI units increases the odds that issues will crop up.  If you're dealing with many clients running PCI units, some are going to encounter problems.  When you're trying to provide universal compatibility and rock-solid stability, this is an X-factor (variable).

I don't think anyone is actually in disagreement on the basic principals/issues here.  

Thanks all...I went and ordered an i7 3820 socket 2011 processor and an ASrock X79 Xtreme 4 motherboard...

My system should be complete by next weekend!

"""assuming we're talking about top performing units in each category/because performance between Firewire, USB2, PCIe, and PCI is extremely close.  Unless you need to work at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size, it's effectively a moot point. """"

pretty much sums up exactly what i have been saying.. not to many in here need 32 buffer. there are a few real composers in here pretty sure i know all 6-10

and hey Jim, how in the world did you get such a pretty girl with that mug of yours?

The bigger question for me is, why are there so few PCIe interfaces? That interface has been out for years and there's maybe a half a dozen models out on the market since its introduction. Namely companies like M-Audio and Echo who previously made (rather popular) PCI interfaces seemed to have passed over PCIe. Why is that?

and hey Jim, how in the world did you get such a pretty girl with that mug of yours?

Yeah, I know...  
She's the whole package.
Personality, Career, Looks, Character... 
She's the perfect fit for me.

Namely companies like M-Audio and Echo who previously made (rather popular) PCI interfaces seemed to have passed over PCIe. Why is that?

For most end-users, the best Firewire and USB2 audio interfaces offer performance that's right on par with the best PCIe units.

For best fidelity, the A/D and D/A converters need to be outside the PC... so (with a quality PCIe audio interface) there's the expense of manufacturing both a controller-card AND breakout box.

For the end-user, a quality Firewire/USB2 audio interface is an easy install.  Don't have to open the case...

In short:  Cost and convenience...

Jim Roseberry

Namely companies like M-Audio and Echo who previously made (rather popular) PCI interfaces seemed to have passed over PCIe. Why is that?

For most end-users, the best Firewire and USB2 audio interfaces offer performance that's right on par with the best PCIe units.

For best fidelity, the A/D and D/A converters need to be outside the PC... so (with a quality PCIe audio interface) there's the expense of manufacturing both a controller-card AND breakout box.

For the end-user, a quality Firewire/USB2 audio interface is an easy install.  Don't have to open the case...

In short:  Cost and convenience...

...which is all fine and good except the fact that Firewire is pretty much on its deathbed now, and USB3 is already making its entrance.


I have a Firewire interface (Echo AudioFire4) for my Mac Book Pro that I use for live performance/mobile recording (I use another DAW for those sorts of projects). I've always shied away from USB as an audio interface due to latency and (especially in the case of USB2) takes away processor resources. The PC I'm building now has one FW jack in the motherboard, though I have no idea whether it'll work with a FW interface, which, as I mentioned, is a dying breed now.

...which is all fine and good except the fact that Firewire is pretty much on its deathbed now, and USB3 is already making its entrance.

 
FWIW, The death of Firewire has been grossly exaggerated. 
As you mentioned, your motherboard comes with an onboard FW controller.
Many quality motherboards still come with Firewire (albeit typically not Texas Instruments chipset).
You can readily/easily find PCIe TI chipset FW controllers.
 
Want to know why USB2 is popular and gaining???
It's cheap to implement... and virtually everyone has a USB2 port. 
 
You can run heavy loads (with a well configured i7 based DAW) using an RME USB2 audio interface at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size.  That's 4.9ms total round-trip latency at 44.1k.  CPU consumption with a modern system is nill...
 
Regarding USB3, I'm not aware of a single pro level audio interface that's even been announced (let alone available within the next several months)... so I wouldn't throw away your Fireface UFX just yet.  
 
As with all products, cost/convenience and market-share have a profound effect...
We're a tiny/miniscule niche market compared to general-purpose users.  There's just not enough of "us" to drive the market.
 
All this aside, I don't see this as a bad time/situation.
We have the speed/power to accomplish incredible things.
We take for granted things that weren't even possible 10 years ago.
 
Remember how quickly hardware MIDI gear became obsolete?
Spend $3+k on a new flagship workstation.  Three years later... it sounded dated.
The pace of computer hardware development makes that technology look like it was standing still.
 
Look at the 1818-VSL from Presonus.  That's a lot of audio interface for $500.
That type of unit (for the cost) simply wasn't available ten years ago.
That's the up-side of the vicious cycle... 

Whoa, who shook the tree and knocked the cat down? All we need now is Pdemotech and Perlman to drop in. Hmm, maybe if I spell it as "Pearlman"...

Speculation on the imminent demise of FW really began to take off when Apple, which had developed FW, dropped it from its low-end Macbook offering in favor of USB2, although still offering FW (FW800 even) on its higher end stuff. Apple had already dropped FW from iPods several years earlier. 

I am curious about the "hybrid" interfaces, with both FW and USB (like iPods had for a while)), as to how performance differs (if at all?) between the two. 

Dunno. I see far fewer notebook PCs offered with FW ports these days, although I suppose it's still possible to use express card for FW. But that might factor into things insofar as the popularity of notebook PCs and Macbooks seem to have been driving a good portion of the audio interface offerings for some time now.

As for USB audio interfaces, tried 'em, they didn't work well enough for what I wanted to do (ITB guitar fx), and I went for solutions with onboard fx which while they still use USB to interface with a PC, the fx are done in the external units and don't need to traverse the USB link and use the PC.  Have been seeing more interfaces (both FW and USB) offering onboard fx now, which I think is a good direction.

OTOH, since getting an iPad, I've only been looking at those USB interfaces which are compliant with Apple's 'Core Audio' without needing any drivers and can work through an iPad dock USB adapter, although some new ones now offer both dock and USB connections. I know this is the CW forum, but the Auria DAW app is very appealing.

Still remains to be seen how well USB3 will work for audio, and what audio interfaces, etc. adopt it. I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Since PCI Express came onto the scene, I've wondered if there would be be an "external" version implemented for connecting peripherals. There were electrical bus length limits with PCI which prevented it from being extended outside, and I had thought PCIe overcame those to an extent, or could be made extendable through going optical, but never saw that emerge. Now it seems that PCIe 3.0 is being optically extended, so we'll see.

I mean, e-Sata just performs so much better for external storage interfacing than USB2 ever has that I long ago started to avoid any external storage gear which lacks e-Sata. And I wouldn't think of getting a notebook for audio that lacked an e-Sata port or couldn't be fitted with an e-SATA card. But there are still cable length limits with e-Sata.

My feeling is that the future will be bringing even better interfacing for audio, probably on Thunderbolt (waiting to see how Apollo does there) or optical PCIe. Should be interesting.

Now perhaps Jose C. will chime in and let us know how it all will work....

Nice squeeze, Cat. Like the Mullet too! 


Edit: Just moogled around a bit and came across this old gem from the past:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/cakewalk.audio/3s19HeJGnbo%5B1-25%5D

Oh my. Hehe! 

Hey Goddard,

You first name wouldn't be Lionel would it?  

FWIW, You need to try the latest generation USB2 audio interfaces.
They're not your father's USB audio interface.  
ie: You can record 96k audio at 3.6ms total round-trip latency.  
With a well-configured i7 based DAW, you can sustain 48+ solid channels... completely glitch-free.
This is streaming from a single/fast conventional HD.  With RAID-0 or SSD, you can push that number (significantly) higher.

Thunderbolt really doesn't bring much new to the table (for desktop/tower/rack) other than being able to interface to the PCIe bus externally.  Which would make installs more convenient for the average user...
Thunderbolt is much more significant to small form factor machines (ie: laptops) that would otherwise have no (or limited) access to the PCIe bus for peripherals.

Certainly no disagreement on eSATA vs. USB2
Now if you compare USB3 to eSATA, it's a lot closer.  
ie: With a fast conventional HD in a USB3 enclosure, you'll achieve about 110MB/Sec sustained.
eSATA is still faster (assuming the HD's speed exceeds 110MB/Sec)

Regarding the Squeeze, her smile says it all.  
Oh... and you're a detail oriented person.  Take a closer look at the hair.  
It's all one length (no Billy Ray style here)... it's more 80's hair-band.   



Hey... just read that thread from the past.
That brought back a lot of memories.  I kinda miss those days...
There was some "scrapping" but the level of recording/technical knowledge (and mix of personalities) was great.  Especially exciting because DAWs (DSP and native) were a new frontier...