2013/06/03 19:00:39
munmun
I have been working on a mix.  I am still a tad "by the book" when it come to mixing and not "by the ear".  So I read stuff and slavishly follow.  Now I am being down on myself.  I have come a long way by eventually relying on ears.  However I still have not cracked the lower mids 150hz-500hz.  That is where boxiness apparently resides.  For a recent mix, I went into every track and bus,  found the damn boxiness and killed it.  Needless to say, there is a big hole in my mix in that frequency range  and my mix la is warmth.

I know what to do.  Go back.  Restore all the cuts and then listen before cutting.  Before I do that, Ny suggestions and tips?  Reverb sends?  Cut or leave?  Bass guitar?  Guitar?  Box??  Snare?
2013/06/03 19:22:13
bitflipper
I have the most problem with 200-400Hz. I think it's because although there is obviously valuable data in that range it's hard to put your finger on what it is exactly. Not like the thump of a kick or the bite of a vocal or the sizzle on a ride. What's at 300? Parts of other things.

I rely heavily on the old peak-and-sweep method to find which tracks have too much down there.

Regarding reverb returns, for most tracks you can HPF the reverb pretty severely. I think I read somewhere that the cutoff for the chamber at EMI was 600Hz. What I sometimes forget is that if I need to do a big cut on a vocal track, I also need to make the same cut on the reverb, too.

The biggest mistake I see people making is attempting to fix mid with an EQ on the master bus. 

To quote Mixerman: "don't cut the low mids, make 'em yer ****!".
2013/06/03 19:47:48
Jeff Evans
I have found from much experience is to keep an eye on tracks at track level for lower mid boxiness and just keep it under control there but don't do anything too radical either. Aim for a well balanced mix prior to mastering. Very slight amounts or a little dip around 300 Hz at track level can work but not at the expense of the sound either. Use your judgement there.

Mastering is a good place to control this lower mid problem further. (not at the time of mixing and using EQ on the masterbuss, a totally separate mastering session later) The reason is that a mix tends to build up a little excess energy there for various reasons. A good mix will only need a little dip between 200 and 300 Hz, not very deep (-3 to -4dB max) and a gentle bell shape as well. (bandwidth should not be over wide either from 150 to 350 Hz max) The trick is to use this little dip in a minimal fashion and a mix can just become clearer all round when the right amount of this is applied.  A good mix may not need a lot or any of it all either. Use your ears again to judge.


If you have been mixing all day you might become a bit immune to any build up of energy in this critical area. So it is best not to apply any eq in this area in your masterbuss. Another reason for mastering a week later. You will hear it fresh and get a true indication as to how much build up there is there.

I have been giving it some thought. Middle C is actually only 261 Hz and this is almost considered the centre of musical pitches. Bass is one and two octaves below that and the higher notes are one and two octaves too above that as well. Fundamentals don't go up much higher than 2KHz or more so most of the energy above 3Khz - 20Khz can be considered to be harmonics related. When I was studying jazz piano at one point they were telling is to keep all your voicings around middle C because they sound best there. Higher and the sound gets thin and lower it gets muddy.

A lot of the musicians in the music are in fact hovering around middle C. Guitar is from 80 Hz to 600Hz or so, there can be a lot of energy around middle C. Bass fundamentally may not be there but harmonics wise it can be. Keyboard players are playing a lot of voicings there. Some of the lower horns will sound there. It may explain why there can be a build up around this area. 

In mastering you can just put that nice little dip in there at the right depth and it all seems to just even out nicely. Trick is as soon as you start dipping too far down you are now pulling out energy there. Practice listening to very small amounts of EQ changes and revel in how massive the change really is. People are not tuned to it and are making way too drastic eq changes and wondering they have just smashed their mix or their track. Listen to how amazing 0.5 dB of boost around 1Khz sounds effecting from 500 to about 3 KHz only, very gentle bell up just a tiny tiny amount. Wow listen to how far forward the mids just moved. 

In mastering dipping down 2 dB at 250Hz may not be enough and -3db too much so you set it at -2.5 dB instead and it might just come out perfect. Good thing to do about now is switch to your reference tracks at exactly the same volume and listen to how clear things are down in that area too. Go back to your mastering and fine tune etc..
2013/06/04 00:49:50
AT
It seems the op is going overboard on the lower mids.  As said above, judicious and light cutting in those frequencies is the answer, not severe cutting.  a lot of energy of most instruments lies below 500 hz and you are cutting more meat and less harmonics. Dip, don't cut. 

And yea,  reverb rolling off way up the frequency spectrum can clear up a lot of the mud and boxiness.

@

@
2013/06/04 01:39:03
Jeff Evans
The state of reverbs is definitely important. It is too easy to create a send and send some track signal into a reverb. But you are sending in the full range.

It should almost be mandatory the you patch and EQ prior to the reverb. It is better before than after too. Why let bass or lower frequencies get into the reverb and bounce around just like they do in real life. You don't have to go mad here either even cutting off at 500 Hz or lower and having a nice slope so that 125 Hz you might be 12 dB down. If you kill too much bottom end going into the reverb it will come out too thin as well. 

A lot of mud can be cleared up in the reverbs overall. I like to solo the reverbs one by one by themselves only. It is quite revealing often when you do listen into the reverbs you are generating behind something. You will often hear too much action down around 100Hz or so. Most of it unnecessary. Once you put that EQ in most of that reverb lower end stuff goes away just leaving the cleaner important reverb behind. Be aware of what you are sending into your reverbs and also what is coming out the other end.
2013/06/04 05:20:05
The Maillard Reaction


"Why let bass or lower frequencies get into the reverb and bounce around just like they do in real life."




Because it sounds like real life?


More than once I have mixed up a full MIDI sequence and had folks assume it was a live band, room mic... mix in a bad sounding room.


I don't know about you... but pulling that off can feel satisfying every now and then.


:-)






best regards,
mike
2013/06/04 06:54:23
munmun
bitflipper


I have the most problem with 200-400Hz. I think it's because although there is obviously valuable data in that range it's hard to put your finger on what it is exactly. Not like the thump of a kick or the bite of a vocal or the sizzle on a ride. What's at 300? Parts of other things.

I rely heavily on the old peak-and-sweep method to find which tracks have too much down there.

Regarding reverb returns, for most tracks you can HPF the reverb pretty severely. I think I read somewhere that the cutoff for the chamber at EMI was 600Hz. What I sometimes forget is that if I need to do a big cut on a vocal track, I also need to make the same cut on the reverb, too.

The biggest mistake I see people making is attempting to fix mid with an EQ on the master bus. 

To quote Mixerman: "don't cut the low mids, make 'em yer ****!".
Would you high pass other buses like Flanders and choruses at 600k as well?

2013/06/04 09:53:28
bitflipper
I don't worry so much about high-passing flangers and choruses because they're basically HPF'd internally due to the way they work. But generally, yes, if you put a HPF on the source track you should probably put it on any parallel busses as well.
2013/06/04 10:43:31
munmun
In case there is interest.  This is the track in question.  The harshness speaks like a big hole from 150k-500k.

https://soundcloud.com/su...are-the-most-beautiful
2013/06/04 10:43:34
batsbrew
150 is the devil.


500, on the other hand, is the schizophrenic.

sometimes, it's perfect.
sometimes, it's a cold stoned killer.


you gotta learn when it's what.

kick, nuke that 500...
but voices, hell, maybe you boost it.

it really depends on the source, track by track.

that's what learning how to mix is all about,

learning to tell the difference.




trust your tools and eyes, but not before your ears.


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