Jeff Evans
There are some other major issues with your music Sunny that are actually pretty important and much more important than any mix or room issues. And firstly please I am not being hard on you here only truthful. This advice is important because it is this sort of stuff that effects the final mix in a very extreme way.
 
The two things that really grabbed me about the song, the first was the groove or timing is not great. It is pushing and pulling all over the place and sounds uncomfortable to me. This comes first before anything. Once all the notes are in place timing wise everything from that moment on will seem easier and better.
 
Second is arrangement of parts stuff. The music is not very well organised and there are a lot of parts just playing over the top of each other and overlapping and it sounds a bit disorganised and a mish mash to me a bit. Too many things going on. Over complex. The music needs to be edited in such a way that the essence of the groove remains and your arrangement because it is good in fact you just need to clear things up to spell it out more so and with much more space around the parts and less going on.
 
Those drums of course need sorting out, once drums are in the music you need to hear them and properly and all parts of the kit equally. 
 
Danny got me thinking too about a mix may have no excess energy in the lower mids at all and the reason is that if the parts are well organised and don't overlap and interweave much more so then there will never be too many things playing at the same time. Hence much less build up of lower mid energy is possible. This is the sort of stuff that is not talked about much but contributes to a poor mix in a big way. The best productions have things weaving in and out of each other, not overlapping at all or for long. Space around the parts. You have got to hear the black backdrop in your mix. It is the music that makes it happen, not your engineering or production.
 

Please let me start by saying I just about NEVER disagree with Jeff on anything. Though I will admit that everything he has said here is correct in my opinion, the first part is something I highly disagree with in THIS particular scenario:
 
There are some other major issues with your music Sunny that are actually pretty important and much more important than any mix or room issues. And firstly please I am not being hard on you here only truthful. This advice is important because it is this sort of stuff that effects the final mix in a very extreme way.
 
The reason being, you can have the greatest performance, arrangement and everything else to go with it and fail on the mix aspect. If you cannot hear the right things, you will not mix the right things. What Jeff says is super important to me and IS a necessity but it is NOT as important as hearing the right things correctly in order to make the right calls. If I gave you rough tracks of things I've recorded that had timing issues and arrangements that weren't quite up to snuff, though it would hurt the song value and content/performance of the over-all song, it would NOT (in MY opinion) hurt the sound of the mix with the right engineer mixing the song.
 
Trust me Sunny, I've dealt with musicians that wish they had a 1/4 of your talent....flaws and all. I made them sound like a million bucks...with crappy arrangments, timing issues, and parts that didn't quite fit. Again, though that stuff is super important being an artist/musician, it is NOT something that makes you mix your songs any better nor does it teach you or allow you to hear what to fix or when to fix it. Yes you have some things that are a bit jumbled, but nothing out of the ordinary that will fix the mix issues you have if you were to alter them. If it is indeed your monitors clouding your vision or your lack of ability to "know" how or what to fix, having session players with perfect timing and a good arrangement will not solve a thing as long as you are working in YOUR studio on YOUR gear. 
 
Just to be clear as I have a feeling what I've typed here may upset Jeff and that is not my intent. What he said is important and something you need to definitely consider. But in a mix standpoint, which is what you are after at this time, none of it fixes a broken eq'd mix or a mix to where your monitors may be misrepresenting or if you don't know what to listen for or how to fix it. That is the point I'm trying to make. Your arrangement and performance are more than clear enough for me to tell you " check for monitor misrepresentation".
 
-Danny

Don't worry Danny all is good. Not upset at all in fact I welcome the differing opinions. You know I enjoy a good discussion with you any time. I am someone like you who bases what they say on real world experiences.
 
Yes I was not putting down the importance of good production either but sometimes a lot of production wont correct a section that might be too busy and yet editing parts around can make a massive difference.
 
After listening to it again the verses are not suffering from this as much as I think the choruses do. The choruses can get busy in places and I would be wanting to re arrange what various things are doing behind the vocal line in the chorus. When the big vocal harmony lines come in the chorus I would be changing what the parts are doing there too as to really bring those vocals out. Think of how the Beatles would arrange a similar part. They often had huge clarity in the vocal harmonies with the music carefully crafted behind at times.
 
I half agree with Danny in that about half of the song is OK in terms of what parts are doing but not all of it though. I am hearing clutter in certain areas. Taking things out can really make a difference. What would a top producer do to this song. That is how I tend to think of it. Groove wise it is very OK in places but then there are other spots I am hearing drums and bass sounding a bit strange unless a very looses sort of vibe is intended here. That is just the drummer in me being very sensitive to groove issues. Somehow when the groove is killer all the way through it sort of distracts you a bit because it is so good. In some ways secretly we are all trying to make a killer groove. That is what all the greats have in common.
 
What has been said here regarding the more technical aspects of the production and mix are all good and that is why I did not mention that so much. The mix is not good in places too. Things are too loud here and there and also there seems to be some jump in levels here and there too. These are very definite production issues. I was just trying to draw attention to that beautiful all important aspect of how parts interweave with each other. As you start clipping out the unwanted clutter the black backdrop becomes clearer and the song gets clear too.
 
At the moment I am working with projects that have got a lot going on (more than enough going on) and I am in edting mode full swing right now pruning things down. I am always impressed as to how clear things can become and how much space can appear when doing things like this. Taking things out I guess. That is what a good producer would start doing with this track, I can almost guarantee it.
 
 

This thread has been extremely helpful for me!  Thank you.  I considered my mix environment.  A salesperson almost sold me $1600 Sennheiser HD800's saying that my woes would be behind me.  I didn't bite.  I was pretty sure that I could do better despite the mix environment so I tried to remix.  Here is what I have learned:
 
- mixing is bloody complicated.  Specially in a sub-par environment.  The act of keeping everything in balance makes me feel like the guy with spinning plates in both hands, head and anywhere else one can imagine trying to stand upright in a boat in a deadly storm.
- every frequency band is sacred. Treat them with respect and don't overcrowd them.  Figure out one or two sounds that are the most important in that range.  Cut the rest.
- Hi pass everything but the bass and kick.
- Lo pass everything but the cymbals.
- Make sure you are eq'ing and applying the above to buses.  They matter.  Same for overhead and room mics on the drums.
- Listen.  Don't follow rules and prescriptions.  None matter.
 
So thank you everyone!  Here is what I came up with last night.  It isn't perfect.  Still learning and I still have that room issue.  But it is much better than it was and getting closer.
 
https://soundcloud.com/su...cenes-from-the-bedroom
 

Jeff: Cool, glad you didn't take it the wrong way. Like I said, I agree with what you said...but my point was, if you or I got Sunny's mix...the arrangment/performance wouldn't stop US from adding the right stuff or taking away the bad stuff because WE can hear this stuff and fix it. :) So to me, though arrangement and timing are always super important...you or me would change his mix for the better based on our experience as well as our monitors showing us what we should be hearing at all times. :)
 
Sunny: In your last post...you mentioned:
- Hi pass everything but the bass and kick.
- Lo pass everything but the cymbals.
 
You have it backwards. Hi pass removes bothersome low end. Lo pass removes harsh highs. LOL! I know it's weird...it seems like it should be the other way around, right? Hahaha!
 
Now, though what you said there is sort of right for most things, you have to be able to determine when to hi pass/lo pass. The reason being....sometimes an instrument may not be recorded with excessive lows. Sometimes the instruments may not have harsh high end. If you just "do it" because you feel the masses agree that you should, you can ruin something that may not need major hi passing or lo passing. You have to be able to hear this to execute it. For example, just about all of my guitar tones could be presented just as they are without a hi pass or a low pass. Now depending on what type of song it is would determine this...but if I wanted to just throw something together and show you what my tones would sound like without any high passing or low passing, they don't contain blatant issues that would make someone just execute the "passing".
 
So you have to be able to determine what needs it and what doesn't. Yes, just about always you will do some high passing and low passing...but your ears have to tell you that first. Some guys record bass properly. What that means is....a bass guitar has less low end than people think. When it's recorded properly, 9 times out of 10 we need to ADD low end to it. It you start high passing it "because you're supposed to high pass everything" you can make the track suffer. So get your listening environment up to snuff this way you can tell when you need to do something and when you can maybe be a bit more lenient.
 
Also, be careful with this way of thinking: - every frequency band is sacred. Treat them with respect and don't overcrowd them.  Figure out one or two sounds that are the most important in that range.  Cut the rest.
 
I wouldn't put too much stock into that, brother. Just about all frequencies make up the sound. Grab an eq and start cutting things on a sound. You'll notice if you toggle bypass that they all make some sort of difference to the original sound. The object is to make the sound get along with the other instruments. If you are a guy that solo's things up and eq's them...that is a major problem when you are inexperienced at this. Any of us can make an instrument sound great by itself. The problem is...when you un-solo and add it with the rest, it won't sound very good.
 
You should always mix with the full mix going because this is where you can tell where the problem areas are coming from. But none of this will be apparent to you until you can get your monitors sorted. Trust me....you'll be spinning your wheels until you can get your monitors working right. A sub is important. I say don't procrastinate on that if you can afford one. Then do the ARC thing again with the sub on following my instructions. If that doesn't fix you, I don't know what to tell you. What monitors are you using again? It may be time for some good ones.
 
See, that's the thing with this field. You can make it a money pit that nickels and dimes you to death buying little things that add up that won't help. Or, you save your money, get a really good set of monitors with a sub, ARC it and you should be golden. You get what you pay for in this field with monitors, that's for sure. JBL's with the room correction that comes with them, Rokit 6's or 8's, Adam, Event, Genelec....those to me are what you should at least consider.
 
Here's the method to my madness. Ok, I get it...you're not a pro, you may never want to be a pro. You don't have a lot of money....I'm with you. That is what most people say. Here's the part to think about though. You spend A LOT of time doing this stuff. From performing to mixing...it's a time consuming hobby that can frustrate you almost as fast as a woman. LOL! That said...if the black clouds that are on you right now were lifted for say, $2000 max (going high here) wouldn't that be worth it?
 
I say that because that was what I was faced with. Working with old NS-10's (the worst monitors to use without a sub or any type of correction) for years to where I stopped using them and mixed through headphones. I got fair results but chalked it up that I'd just be a pre-production studio. here's the short version to a long story I've been telling for years on forums. 
 
One day I was so frustrated, I didn't want to do this anymore. I knew I was a decent engineer with good ears, but for some reason, my mixes sure didn't reflect that. After my mentor told me to update my monitors, I did that. Got a sub, got ARC and all the clouds were gone. I'm still not a great engineer, but I think I do a pretty consistent job and like to think I'm decent at it with repeating clients that have me booked over a year in advance. My Adam rig with the sub was like $1600 total I believe. But the cool thing was...that sub helped me with EVERY set of monitors I have.
 
So if you can invest a little money in the right stuff....definitely consider it. This is a field we love...we spend countless hours doing it. We shouldn't be frustrated or second guessing anything. It should be as easy as hearing something, knowing if it needs work, knowing how to fix it if it does, mixing the song, producing it and moving on. I never sit here and say "is that bass too much?" I never sit here and wonder "should I do this or this?" I just know...and you will too as soon as you can hear things the right way. You'll see, I promise you. When all my black clouds were gone....my business became a business. :)
 
-Danny 

Hey thanks.  Couple of things.  Yes I always mix up the lo and hi pass things!  Second I agree with everything you said.  All my lessons have one caveat.  Listen first.  That is perhaps the thing that I am still getting a handle on.  Attention to detail is not my strength in life.  Here it is critical.
 
What I found in this mix was that there was too much clutter and energy in the high end.  Once I started filtering the high end on some stuff, the cymbals started to sound better.
 
On the subject of a sub.  I read somewhere that a sub in a small room will make issues worse.  Is that true?  That is why I have stayed away.  And yes given the time I spend on this relatively inexpensive hobby (compared to sailing), I would be willing to fix my issues for $2k.

Can you see why the arrangement is so important and the production at the same time. eg you say EQ something very important eg the vocal and scoop everything else around it. Well NO. What if you have done a great job in editing the other stuff to the point that the other stuff behind the vocal actually never happens at the same time as the vocal but rather in between the vocal lines. Would you need to scoop those parts out, no because they don't clash with the vocals at any time do they so they don't need scooping out.
 
When parts are not overlapping anywhere near as much and they interweave much more the great thing about that concept is you can allow the full tone and spectrum on those parts through. In fact the mix sounds better if a guitar lick comes in at some point while the vocal is not that lick should sound good. If a guitar lick does end up behind a vocal at some point, I create a separate clip for that and apply individual clip EQ on that and maybe scoop just the odd lick here and there to allow for that situation and only slight scooping too not massive amounts. You don't want to change the guitar sound too much just for one clip either.
I also agree with Danny about HP and LP. I have just done a big mix where I did not need to HP or LP anything. The reason is that everything was recorded nicely and there was not an issue at the extremes of the spectrum. One should not do a blanket HP or LP on anything, it is silly option. None of the tracks in question needed any of that in my case. I had to boost the bass as Danny says too in one song just to make it pull through the mix down low a little more. 
 
(The only place I put HPF on everything except the kick and the bass is a live mix situation. In that environment it works and works well and avoids a lot of problems later. I think every live sound engineer does that anyway)
 
It is not bad to solo at least for checking if a track needs HP or LP. At least you can hear it on its own and properly and make an informed decision as to HP or LP filtering. But do get the full mix back on asap though.
 
Top end is another issue and you cannot have everything very bright either. If everything is bright then nothing is bright! It is good to smooth out top end on a lot of things and leave only some things clear like vocals, hats etc. Think of a dark sky with stars up there. Most stars should be dim and only a few bright. I tend to use EQ's a bit more doing this because sometimes shelving the high end down a bit is nicer to my ears than LPF which has a slope on it. They are not the same. Your track Sunny is not too bright at all.

munmun
On the subject of a sub.  I read somewhere that a sub in a small room will make issues worse.  Is that true?  That is why I have stayed away.  And yes given the time I spend on this relatively inexpensive hobby (compared to sailing), I would be willing to fix my issues for $2k.

In my opinion Sunny, I don't think it's true but there sure are quite a few that would disagree with me on the whole "sub in a small room" poll. I just don't hear nearfield monitors giving the right amount of low end nor do they put out the right frequency of low end the way a sub does. Mind you, it is my sincere belief that those that are against subs in a small room feel that way because too many people abuse subs...AND..it is super easy to over-use it in a small room.
 
But if you are careful with it, it seriously makes a difference for the better. I wish there was a way for you to hear me toggling my sub on and off to where it would make sense to you and not sound strange. I add such a little bit that it just puts the icing on the low end cake. Without it, you can tell it's missing...with it, it's not over-use at all. So if you're focused with it and don't make it pump, you'll be fine.
 
It may take you a few mixes to decide on whether you have too much or not enough sub going on. In each of my rooms, I had to do a test mix and then listened to it in as many places as I could. In my studio at my house, I was mixing bass heavy, so I turned the sub up. This made me hear more bass in my mix due to the sub adding it, so it makes me mix bass lighter to which I can take some of the lows out of the mix. What gets tricky here is...selecting the right sub frequency to push for your particular room.
 
In my new studio, we were mixing a bit bass light so we turned the sub DOWN. This allowed us to hear a little less bass in the mix due to the sub while making us mix MORE low end into the material. Keep in mind, when we've had to turn the sub up or down, it was just an increment because ARC had already corrected things for us. When I say we were mixing bass light or a little bass heavy, I'm talking just a little bit to where most people wouldn't notice or say a word. We just felt "ok, that's just a little more low end than we feel we should have" and with the bass light stuff "ok, it sounds a bit bass light."
 
We could have fixed it with eq in the mix. However, the object of this is to hear what you hear in your studio and then when you listen back through another set of speakers, it should STILL sound like your mix. The qualities should all remain. We were hearing a bit extra sub low in our mixes in every place we listened so we knew we were a bit bass heavy. When we were bass light, the same thing....our mixes sounded like they could have a bit more bass presence in them on various speakers.
 
So some of this, even with monitor correction, the best monitors you can afford AND room tuning, will need a few small tweaks here and there to fine tune things. We literally turned our sub down one notch at the new studio, and I turned my sub UP one notch at my home studio. So it was minimal once you have things dialed in. Good luck. :)
 
-Danny