It was a really sweet sounding trumpet. Wow, she has great tone and such a gentle feel. Wow.

It wouldn't hurt a "pop" song to have such a nice sound to use in a mix.



best regards,
mike 

That classical trumpet sound would not work in a pop mix. Mike you are now showing your (serious) lack of experience producing pop music. She did sound nice playing the music she did. I really enjoyed it too. She probably would not cut a pop session very well at all. Bit like trying to get a classical guitarist to lay down some serious rock licks. 

Another reason why that video is irrelevant to the OP's question. 

Jeff,

 Sometimes you put your foot in mouth so badly... I'm left speechless.

 It must be a culture mismatch in how we communicate across such great distance... because I get the impression you are a lot nicer than you sometimes seem.

 all the best,
mike

Well (I am sorry) Mike I don't think I have put my foot into my mouth at all. I have just stated some facts. Two completely different trumpet scenarios, worlds apart and they don't have very much relevance to each other all. The recording techniques are also worlds apart too.

Can you see that. It is pointless to even compare them. Our OP is a hip young pop sound (check out his music, good thing to do first).

I have some experience recording trumpet in a classical situation and also laying down a pop horn section too and yes they are quite different. In the pop world we want them dry, closer, cutting and snappy and all that. Nothing wrong with putting a decent mic right in front of a horn. I have done it may times and rarely been disappointed. You can over think it as many do around here. What you need is some great music then horn arrangements, excellent players (with fantastic time) and then you can just put the mic in front and BAM there is your sound.

The classical approach definitely requires a very different approach and more care and finesse.

I thought I seem nice all of the time

Hi Jeff, 
 I think you make too many assumptions and you often seem to promote conventional ideas simply because they are the convention.

 I've worked with Mr. Marsallis on both Pop and Classical styles. I've used both an SM58 in the bell as well as U87 arrays at a distance.  What ever the gig inspires.

 I've worked with a lot of less well known horns and horn bands too... and it was primarily pop/soul/latin pop.

 The state I live in has about as many people in it, at any given time, as your entire country. Then we have New Orleans just down the highway in a whole 'nother state.


 Horns and wind are kinda a big deal down here in this area.


  Our little city has 4, yes 4 big bands based here that travel around and play hard and fast. We also have several RnB or Soul style horn bands. One of the soul bands has been schooling me for about 30 years now... and they still think of me as the kid or the new guy. :-)

 So what? Big deal.  

 I dislike it when you assume that people that don't brag about their experience have inconsequential opinions... but I know you mean well. :-)

 I've reciprocated by accepting you 110% as a peer and colleague for a long time now... it is just that sometimes we seem to communicate differently.

 I regard Daniel as a very experienced pro as well. 110%.

 I know that we can find common ground and still disagree about stuff. It's how we go about disagreeing that defines the nature of the relationship.

 It's the assumptions and wild conclusions that seem both unnecessary and well... not so nice.




 I think, and this is just my opinion, that when we speak of pop music that there really isn't any convention and that adhering to one because it happened to work out once or twice is too conventional.





Hi Davdud,
 I'd like to convey that I very much enjoy the work I hear you doing. When I saw your question I thought the appropriate answer was, and still is, 

"Any way you want to do it."

 That's why I have been reading the other folks answers rather than offering a "way". I recognize that your budget isn't matched to your skill or vision... but you will get there.

 I say that you can start with the gear you have and the room/environment circumstance you are working in and trust that your ears will guide you to where you want to get.



 all the best,
mike

 

bitflipper


TBH, I've never recorded a trumpet or trombone myself, but a Shure SM-58 is often a decent substitute for a ribbon in many applications. It'll handle the SPL and has similar frequency characteristics. It's just not bidirectional, so I'd think you'd want to place it a little further from the instrument to catch some room sound. Although I've not tried a 58 on brass in the studio, on stage it's the standard go-to mic for pert' near everything, including horn sections.

It's my turn to agree with Bitflipper. (nowt new there )

A friend of mine who's been playing Sax since about 1980 told me that every time he goes into the studio, they always use an SM57, which is practically the same as a '58

http://royerlabs.com/malcolmmcnab.html

Here is another great little tidbit.  The ribbon mics were placed closer and above the trumpet in a more jazz context.  

A trumpet is directional to a point as it is cylindricaly bored, but 99% of the tone resonates from the body, the bell just projects the high distortion created from the air movement.  Other instrument like trombone, French horn and Tuba, are much more omnidirectional, and microphone placement becomes somewhat easier.

Placing the mic above the instrument allows just as much high frequency information to be captured, as the projected sound will follow the bell, but with much less distortion.

In the Allison Balsom video,  there were no microphones placed in front of the bell, only above and to the side.  And in that context the majority of the sound was being picked up by the main microphones of the orchestra, several feet away.  The spots only contribute maybe 30% of the overall pickup.   Obviously the 414 was not the main mic, it just provided a little added body resonance from that angle.  

I understand where you are coming from, and I'm an not saying this is the best method for all types of music, especially for edgy pop sounds, but it would be a mistake to dismiss the knowledge of engineers more experienced in areas of acoustic music recording when attempting to recording such instruments.  

And for the record, professionally trained classical musicians tend to be the best pop musicians as well, as long as they have a feel for it that is.  I have heard some pretty pathetic attempts at folk and popular music by lesser classical musicians who are just not able to listen to one another.  Some do get buried in their music without any thought to what is going on around them.  

That really got heated up there... Hopes that the conflict is resolved. I suppose it IS true that I can record it in any way I would like to achieve the sound I'm looking for. A big stumbling block for me is that I can't really get the right amount of brightness off-axis from a dynamic mic like an SM-58. I'll keep experimenting, thanks all!

Why do you want to record off axis necessarily. A lot of the sound happens on axis. But even so the off axis sound can be treated with EQ after. Nothing to stop you from boosting the highs a little if that is the sound you are after. 

The reason why condenser microphones are good is because they have the highs naturally and don't need boosting so much on or off axis.
Ribbon Mics will give a smoother probably more suitable classical sound but for a pop horn section condensers might still be better. If you are recording multiple horn players at once the room also becomes a factor and it should be a nice tight sounding room too. It all helps isolate the horns in a mix a little.

In my experiences classical musicians were not good pop horn section players at all. The best guys in that situation were the ones that were doing it more regularly. Especially phrasing the way pop horn sections phrase. The big band Jazz players are much better in this situation. They are used to it. Where the classical players came into their own was playing more orchestral for film score type material. They could read anything and play very accurately as an ensemble and also play difficult parts too. Two quite different uses of brass instruments. I love them both a lot.

"In my experiences classical musicians were not good pop horn section players at all."

I'm going to remind Jeff that Wynton Marsalis (a fellow from New Orleans that knows how to play a trumpet) gets invited to play with classical orchestras and pop bands because folks seem to think he's real good at playing the trumpet.

:-)


I do know a few classical players that don't like to boogie, but I don't see how that can be a reason to promote a stereotype about classical musicians.

Stereotypes aren't cool. ;-)







I guess what I'd like to convey is that if you think you want it to be a little brighter than you can easily make an experiment by simply moving around the mic with your instrument (while your playing) and then listen to the results and figure out what is working for you. 

It is that easy.

There's no make it hard.


all the very best,
mike